EP4 Did you trust _?

Did you trust John? What was your reasoning?

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  • First time, no. Second time, yes.
    First time because I knew it wasn't self-defense.
    Second time because I knew he was the best chance at getting to Harley.

  • I very hesitantly chose to trust him, and it seemed to pay off since he only became a vigilante instead of a villain.

  • I chose to trust him. I did so, solely based on what would produce the most interesting scene. There's no way I actually trusted him. The rest of the episode was full of compounded lies on his behalf.

  • 100% in agreement. The vigilante ending was definitely more interesting.

    Johro posted: »

    I chose to trust him. I did so, solely based on what would produce the most interesting scene. There's no way I actually trusted him. The rest of the episode was full of compounded lies on his behalf.

  • Same.

    I very hesitantly chose to trust him, and it seemed to pay off since he only became a vigilante instead of a villain.

  • Now instead of Joker he'll become... THE SMOKER.

    His code is to deliver smoking addictions to his adversaries so one day they'll have permanent health problems or even lung cancer... for the smoker this is true justice.

    I very hesitantly chose to trust him, and it seemed to pay off since he only became a vigilante instead of a villain.

  • At the Funhouse I trusted him but not without a doubt at first I have to admit.. I've been pro-John but even I couldn't not to express my doubts to him, and the dialogue that we got from that was amazing, better than if you just believe him at every turn. After that I trusted him completely to handle Harley on the bridge, which he did. And all this is because I'll be on his side as long as possible, I want to see where this is going. I'm not interested in the villain route, that's not anything new, though I really have to watch that too.. maybe it's also good.

  • "Trusted" him. Best shot at stopping Harley. The alternative would be to alienate him and end up with yet another enemy.

    Not for one second do I believed in his story, though. He killed those agents, that much is evident and the intention was always to bring him to justice.

  • I figured that he wouldn't take betrayal of both persons he really cared about kindly, so I chose to trust him even though I actually didn't trust him. Turned out quite well in the end. Now I'm really curious how will Telltale proceed with the Vigilante John.

  • I'm guessing we'll be forced to trick him or something. Then he'll go villain, or he'll consider Batman an enemy and still think himself as a vigilante.

    Pipas posted: »

    I figured that he wouldn't take betrayal of both persons he really cared about kindly, so I chose to trust him even though I actua

  • Yes, I trust him. He's my friend.

  • I don't trust John one bit although I told him I did because I wanted to keep him on my side and hopefully be able to send him back to Arkham to get the treatment he needs. I also didn't want him back under Harley's influence and since he now knows Batman's identity I figured it would be best to stay on his good side.

  • edited January 26

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand another thread for this discussion!=D

    I trusted him but not wholly, I was hesitant to do so, because he wasn't honest about details, but I did believe him in the end because:

    • His state of panic which didn't allow him to construct any beliveable lie, only pathetic "I started swinging things left and right, weeeeee!!!" line.
    • His monologue before Bruce entered the room. He's was questioning if he should trust Bruce and if it was Bruce who send Agency after him (good question, btw, how did they find him?). Those questions come from his long growing suspicion Bruce is only using him. In the same monologue he sounds scared and desperate about his situation.
    • His reaction if you don't believe him. It's not a reaction of a liar caught during the lie, it's a reaction of a guy offended by mistrust. Liars would panic more, he just became angry. Anger is a natural reaction for a person who's accused of lies while telling the truth, and John, being almost a pathalogical liar, offended twice as much (Gollum, gollum!).
    • How he explains what happened. Bruce points the obvious lies to John without player's intervention, that aside John bluntly tells Bruce he basically killed every living creature in the room until he felt he was safe. Fits John's MO.
    • The blood covering his clothes, which suggests he killed at least one of the agents in close fight, blood splashes on the wall also look like they came from the hit, not a gunshot, but it's hard to tell.
    • How he reacts to agents at the bridge, he twitches, when one of them making a sudden move.
    • How Waller meets him and when trying to shoot him.
    • How he's talking to the dead agent. Doesn't sound like he attacked first, even in rush, he's not that unstable. Sounds like he wasn't prepared to this pile of corpses. That just happened and when - oooopsie, how did things escalated that fast?
    • Basically everything about agency. + they value Harley or Bane's lifes, Waller's gonna use them, but not John's, he's useless to her, I have zero doubts she ordered her people to shoot to kill if they see him. I remember very well what happened when she first appeared at the casino and how she didn't like Batman's and Gordon's "methods".
    • His refusal to hand over the vial to Waller and this face he's making when he looks back at her.
    • His words about Harley and the Agency on the bridge. He's worried they'll shoot first, when ask questions, which looks to me like he talks from the experience.
    • His rage about Waller turning on him in general.
    • Many factors besides what I've already listed.

    And some of additional thoughts I hid under the spoiler to make this post less massive:

    My point is, he did kill them to save his life and did not stop hitting till they were dead and he was safe. It's not a normal thing to do, but it's self defence. If he wouldn't defend himself, he would be dead, but it wasn't neccecary to kill them. They probably were on the floor already, when he killed them, I don't know. I really don't care that much, because I'm sure they provoked him and most likely attacked first. They had 3 guns, he had 2 different socks. I can understand the will to survive when 3 guys with the guns are trying to kill you.
    And in the end, despite him being a shit pretty often, I trust him in general.
    I know he's lying to Bruce about small things, telling half-truths, like with EMP, but like he said - there is secrets, and there is Secrets, where is lies, and where is Lies. The details he lied about were a lie, the reason he killed those guys were truth.
    He's also right about that thing - if there is no trust between them, when what do they have?
    I'd rather trust him and be proved wrong, than don't trust him and betray him in the worst way possible, if he was telling the truth.

    I feel like this whole season in a lot of ways is about trust and boundries. Who do you trust, how far can you go in your trust, who can you depend on?
    Do you trust Gordon with truth? Or Tiffany? Or Selina? Are you ready to show Selina the Batcave? Surprise! Gordon doesn't trust you enough! Tiffany doesn't trust you enough! Harley and Bane are questioning you. John is Joker, how stupid is it to trust him? Yet it's always what he's asking, and he's not sure if he can trust you. Do you trust Waller, Avesta? Riddler?
    Pretty intense season, I like how people are devided in their opinions.

  • edited January 26

    I trusted him. Why? Because I’ve been reading comic books for nearly 35 years and the Joker has always been a villain. I want this friendship to last long as possible. Some people just want to see John and Harvey like they usually are. Not me. I like seeing these different take on these characters and want to avoid having them be their usual selves for as long as possible.

  • edited January 26

    I actually am related to two pathological liars and a compulsive liar. The reactions of a pathological liar are exactly as Johns. They get angry and its because they believe in their own lies. Also they will never, ever admit to the lie. If you catch the slip up they'll adjust the story to fit. John is nearly perfect for it, however I'm not sure that I believe that he believes his story. So I'm thinking he just lied. But liars are actually more composed than what your thinking, they do it often enough that its no big deal for them, and they hate being called out on it. So anger is precisely how they would react.
    Edit: I guess the best way to actually describe it is that they go on the defensive. Which goes hand in hand with anger and I'd say that's exactly how John reacted.

    Tiefling posted: »

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand another thread for this discussion!=D I trusted him but not wholly, I was hesitant to do so, because he wasn'

  • edited January 26

    I did trust him although I did hesitate. So far I don't regret that choice. My reasoning was because he came through the previous times and I also wanted him to stay on my side, rather than maybe pissing him off and screwing me over later on.

  • lol. Yeah, I just knew that I was going to be screwing myself over by not trusting him. I kept thinking 'this is gonna backfire... somehow.' And it did. I'm also disappointed that Bruce couldn't catch John after he says 'no I don't trust you.' Not like the guy was running that fast.

    Hypnosis posted: »

    I did trust him although I did hesitate. So far I don't regret that choice. My reasoning was because he came through the previous times and I also wanted him to stay on my side, rather than maybe pissing him off and screwing me over later on.

  • I chose to trust him because he has really grown on me (after I stopped playing the game assuming that he was the Joker, the first season and the first episode of the second season I played the game assuming he was the Joker from the start, since thats what I am used to.

    Trusting him really was the most nervewracking thing this season, allowing him to talk to Harley, the camera work on that scene was beautiful at keeping the suspense too, even though it didnt end up like I had hoped (Bruce and John walking away together like buddies), it was a breath of relief when he took down Harley

  • Agreed.

    AnimalBoy posted: »

    I trusted him. Why? Because I’ve been reading comic books for nearly 35 years and the Joker has always been a villain. I want this

  • I've really enjoyed this different spin on John as well. It would be aamzing if there's actually an option to save him from becoming Joker. I doubt there will be, but what would be amazing.

    AnimalBoy posted: »

    I trusted him. Why? Because I’ve been reading comic books for nearly 35 years and the Joker has always been a villain. I want this

  • In my eyes it was more about just keeping him on our side as opposed to actually trusting him. Do I fully 100% trust him and his version of events? Hell no. But the guy is clearly disturbed, capable of acts of extreme violence, knows our identity, knows people we're close to like Tiffany, and all he wanted was a little bit of faith and compassion. I would much rather be on this guys good side as opposed to being his enemy. Being John's enemy at this point could ruin Bruce's entire Batman operation. He could start leaking our identity. He could go after people we care about like Tiffany or Gordon. He could blow up Wayne Manor. Or we could just show him the teeniest bit of support and have him feeling indebted to us. It was a no brainer and I feel like you'd have to be truly disgusted with John to not trust him at that point.

  • I trusted him against my instincts because I wanted to believe he was good, and thankfully, he was.

  • I could not have said it better.

    In my eyes it was more about just keeping him on our side as opposed to actually trusting him. Do I fully 100% trust him and his

  • edited January 27

    they are probably Monitoring Avesta remember in your batmobile her hearing aids acted up because the batmobiles anti servalence system.

    First time with the dead agency i didn't have enough details to know if he was lying or telling the truth. i chose to trust him to keep him sane. also while i respect Waller doesn't mean i trust her. second time was the best opinion to send in john. (kind of feel miffed about Waller stabbing me in the back. even when i sayed on her good side through the entire game. shes the one who said you have to use bad people to do good things Practice what you preach lady. However, i am not surpisded by this cliche.)

    i am however very intrested to see where this Vigilante joker goes. although i do preffer the animated series joker. hope this ones more like that. as the animated series joker never felt like a total villian. (althought i am seriously getting a just one bad day vibe from the fun house.)

    Tiefling posted: »

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand another thread for this discussion!=D I trusted him but not wholly, I was hesitant to do so, because he wasn'

  • I trusted John-- in fact, he's the only person I trust anymore! I got the Vigilante ending for him and I think he's got some good ideas. Shame he only shanked Waller.

  • Me too! I live with one! =D I deal with it on the everyday basis. So I'm not "thinking", I'm talking from experience. ) I can recall enough scandals with me confronting outright lie very clearly.
    And this situation is a veeeeery big deal for him. How is he composed?
    But John doesn't believe his lies, it seems he doesn't even completly remember what happened.
    And his anger not caused by Bruce not believing IN his lies, it caused by Bruce's mistrust. His anger after Bruce not trusting him lacks the slightest hint of defensive fear liars show, if you look closely, when they're lying. He's angry because he feels like Bruce betraying him.

    GamerLady posted: »

    I actually am related to two pathological liars and a compulsive liar. The reactions of a pathological liar are exactly as Johns.

  • I wasn't saying John's composed. I'm talking about how you mentioned they'd be more panicked, but for the most part in agreement with you. However I do think John knows he's lying. More because he seems so... sketchy when he asks you to trust him a second time.

    Tiefling posted: »

    Me too! I live with one! =D I deal with it on the everyday basis. So I'm not "thinking", I'm talking from experience. ) I can reca

  • edited January 31

    I have been trusting John throughout the whole game.
    Of course I know he is still Joker and can't be trusted, but I know that giving him a chance to be trusted will get him closer to me.

    Are we all expert manipulators at this point? yes lol, telling John what he wants to hear at every turn.

    I did admit to him that I was manipulating him. I told him, then I regretted it, then I replayed the scene, but I ended up admitting it yet again because the voice acting was so good it really got under my skin. I trusted him right after that and then I trusted him to go to Harley. I really doubt that the whole Joker-Harley struggle was real, pretty sure they were faking it.

    I felt bad for John to a certain extent. But when he showed that he is smarter now, and has some great self awareness and external awareness (realizing we were using him and figuring out we were batman), now I'm just 100% telling him what he wants to hear because he is useful.

  • No, I didn't trust Him, I just couldn't take the risk.

  • To be honest I just want to see how far this friendship will go. I hope it ends up mattering

  • I don't trust him one second, but I love the relationship Bruce and John has and I'm curious where it will go, I still trust him more then Waller the bitch tho xD

  • Of course I trusted him. He is my bro

  • 33 new comments
    only 5 of them were on topic
    stay classy guys

  • Trusting John was a really hard call. I actually paused the game and have it a long thought for about 5 minutes. First, when he asks us if we were using him or not.
    At first I admitted I was using him but I immediately regretted my decision, so I quickly went to the main menu and replayed the scene. Except once I got there, the voice acting for joker really got under my skin again and I had to admit that I used him yet again. Plus, John is a really smart guy so if I had kept lying to him it might have turned him into a villain down the road anyways.

    The second tricky part was harder. Should I trust John or not? I had to pause the game again and think about it really hard, I even procrastinated about it and browsed my phone for some minutes. I obviously did not trust John at all, we all know who he is and we all know the path he is taking. But as soon as I thought to myself how Useful he would be to keep as an ally I made up my mind in an instant. I decided to trust him then and there, and decided to trust him once more at the bridge to talk to Harley. I defended him in front of Waller and I also let Waller get stabbed by Joker in order to preserve our veeery delicate friendship.

    Even though I admitted to using him I still hope I get the chance to tell him I actually do care for him as a friend later on. Even if we were using him I really ended up liking the character, it's really well designed too, mainly the script, so props to telltale for that.

  • edited February 2

    Did I believe John's version of what transpired with the agents at the funhouse? No, of course not. At least, not completely. I mean, I believe he has a double personality, a darker side that emerges and on which he has little control (or does not even want to have control on). He clearly went waaay overboard with those agents, no matter how trigger happy the agency may be. And he clearly enjoyed it, he was not guilty of the action, just afraid of what Bruce/Batman would think of it. Plus, he is a manipulator, he has shown that plenty in Season 1 with the staff at Arkham, plus with the whole laptop thing between Harley and Bruce and Batman (though, as I suspected, we have now the confirmation that he knows). But hey, also Bruce is a manipulator, up to a point, no matter how "good" you play him. He had to be, to infiltrate the pact.

    I have been torn all season between "John is playing the fumbling fool but actually is the mastermind pulling all the strings and manipulating everyone without them noticing" and thinking that he actually does like Harley and Bruce, to different extents. I have come to the conclusion that it is something in between and that he does or did genuinely like Bruce and admire him as Batman, as he was honestly hurt at the idea of having been just used by Bruce from the start. This does not mean of course that he is not dangerous, that he does not enjoy violence, that he is not manipulative or that he is completely trustworthy.

    So at the funhouse I figured that it was better to play along with him, so he would bring us to Harley and not possibly go off on an even more violent outburst. Plus, when I had the confirmation that he knows who Batman is... well, would you want to make somebody like that a mortal enemy there and then? Then on the bridge I trusted him again because it was the best and most interesting option. Villain Joker has been done again and again in the media, and I just wanted to see where this would lead, even if I was pretty sure it was going to come back and bite me. Actually, despite him going wild at the end, it went well (or way less badly) than I had expected. A part of me fully expected him to turn on me still, blow the bridge or directly release the virus.

    Having said that, I still think that Vigilante Joker could probably be as dangerous as Villain Joker, because his idea of good and justice is twisted by his own standard of "rudeness" and to him "rudeness" is punishable by death. But it could be a refreshing take on the character and I hope that Telltale manages to keep the distinction between the two possible outcomes, even if ultimately you will have to turn him into Arkham or some similar facility.

  • I chose to trust him, and it seemed to pay off since he only became a vigilante.

  • I chose to trust him. When I started the game, I wanted to be John's friend because I thought it would interesting how he would betray Bruce when becoming Joker. When it came to the moment in the Funhouse discovering the agents there and John not being truthful, I believed this is the point where John becomes Joker.
    When the choice came with trusting him or not, I was conflicted with what to do but I said I was going to be John's friend and I made the decision. I don't regret John becoming a vigilante and the big reveal John made about Bruce's identity blew my mind.

  • Blind SniperBlind Sniper Moderator
    edited February 4

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  • When it came to that moment walking up to the room hearing John talking to himself, it made me stop and listen to his entire dialogue ( which I had no regrets from listening to him imitate a conversation between Batman and Gordon earlier in my slow approach, and wasn't disappointed now. )It did a lot to heavily imply guilt and set up tension for the next scene -- but when I entered I decided to trust him from his first admissions.

    He never tried to put it on someone else. He could've said he found it this way -- that Harley must've been cornered by Agency thugs before we arrived. He could've said he heard shots and ran in to help Harley. He had a thousand ways of absolving himself from this in a believable fashion. He might've been foggy on the details, but he confessed one truth : he killed them.

    We don't have the opportunity to do any detective work, but there is a blunt object on the ground, blood on John consistent with close contact, and the splatters on the walls are at angles that wouldn't suggest it was all from guns fired. I offered him the benefit of the doubt -- that whatever happened went down fast. He texted me calmly enough, I arrived with no shots fired, so sometime between my travel he discovered the Agents or was discovered by Agents. I don't believe his accounts of the scene are accurate because he's trying to get a cohesive narrative together that doesn't make him look bad in front of Bruce, he's panicked, and he's drunk.

    I trusted John. He's come through for me, and often times when he shouldn't have. Out of mutual hatred for Riddler, he helped me track him down. He stole Harley's lap top knowing it was a betrayal of her trust, the Pact, and was willing to work with Batman to bring them in. I trusted him to locate Harley alone, and he texted me once more with 'their secret place' that he felt so violated by the Agents intruding upon.

    Maybe it's all mind games, but he's offered me his trust every step of the way. He's battled with his own doubts when it looked equally bad for Bruce that he might've sent those agents the location after the text so they could take care of Harley and John their way. After the way Waller and the other Agents handled the bridge confrontation, I find myself believing him more even if the details weren't clear.

  • We have to stop the Gordon chainsmoking before its too late.

    Now instead of Joker he'll become... THE SMOKER. His code is to deliver smoking addictions to his adversaries so one day they'll have permanent health problems or even lung cancer... for the smoker this is true justice.

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