Befriending John is the clear winner here if your Batman/Bruce. (Ep 5 Sploilers)

Played the Vigilante Joker route and thought it was good. Kept the worst parts of Joker from going mass murderer and he even let me destroy the virus. Wasn't at all put off by his evil Joker turn at the end, knew that my Bruce still thought of him as his buddy in the end and was a fitting close for him with the visit to Arkham Aslyum to see John.

Watched the Villain Joker route and was horrified by the opening gas attack by Joker and Harley. That makes anything any of the previous villain's of batman's telltale did in terms of body count look like little kids playing soccer against any FIFA team. This alone makes Bruce more of a hero if he tries keeping John close rather then pushing him away preventing this massacre.

I also liked how John showed that no one Bruce knew or was Allies/Friends with was without sin at the dinner table scene. It definitely showed that Bruce is a hypocrite not to at least try to trust John in the funhouse previously.

I know some people are saying the story is better on the Villian route but at what cost? It's delusional to think your a hero if that many people in Gotham had to die to make the story a "better" one. I definitely stand by my choices to trust John after seeing that.

Thoughts/Opinions?

Comments

  • Holding John's hand even while he hits the bottom of the abyss is one of the best aspects of episode 5, imo. I can only pray Telltale will incorporate our decisions with Joker's character into the third season, if it happens.

  • I played both, and while I liked the Vigilante Joker's ending better, I preferred the Villain Joker's "everything else but the ending" part.

  • I played both and thought the vigilante route was better in every way. Better in terms of minimizing Joker's body count, better in terms of John's character arc, better in terms of getting an ending where Bruce visits John and actually takes responsibility for the effect he has had on people close to him.

  • Both versions have their ups and downs. Vigilante was the best way to go given the lacking body count and the relationship between Bruce and John but I wished some of the more better written elements from the villain path made their way onto vigilante.

  • Yeah, they could have sneaked some of the elements from the villain path into the vigilante path through Harley. Not to mention, I liked the participation of both Selina and Avesta better in the villain path. They were given more attention. Gordon too.

    J-Master posted: »

    Both versions have their ups and downs. Vigilante was the best way to go given the lacking body count and the relationship between

  • Yeah, I agree although I wasn’t a big fan of how both Avesta, Selina, and Gordon sort of disappear once the Joker is stopped. I’d say the vigilante path gives all three of them a bit more closure even if two of them are detrimant.

    Abeille posted: »

    Yeah, they could have sneaked some of the elements from the villain path into the vigilante path through Harley. Not to mention, I

  • KaelthasKaelthas Banned
    edited March 2018

    What is it with people needing to trash other people's paths or choices to feel like theirs is the best there is? Sounds like a shitload of insecurity to me. Dude, if you like the Villain path, play it, you are not betraying ficticious John for picking Vigilante first and switching later, i'll asure you he won't mind, but there is no need to say "Omg ur not a real Batman because our batman knows the future and knows less people will die if you pick the Vigilante path", sounds like you're trying to convince yourself through others way too hard.

    And you're wrong, The Children of Arkham killed way more people, specially if you left Oswald for EP 5.

  • Funny part is that I had to see both paths first to start any kind of discussion on ep5. Didn't want to have my opinion affected by the forums. I have a very strict one playthrough policy for telltale games. I didn't use any advance knowledge of the Villain path, just showcasing how shocked I was at the level of bloodshed that Joker goes to if you reject him but it makes sense to me. You want an archenemy you got him but Gotham suffers.

    If you choose that then good for you. I have no issues with that and I think some of the Villain Joker storyline is great, I think its even better the Villain/Vigilante paths are so different, adds some polite discussion to the forums like this.

  • I have no issues with that / adds some polite discussion to the forums like this.

    Saying that you're not playing as Bruce/Batman if you didn't choose to befriend a psychopath is not very polite, neither is calling people delusional about their Batman being a hero because their Bruce didn't magically know John was going to kill tons of people. As I said, is not very polite.

    I love the lack of self awareness though, a nice detail, claiming to be a hero, claiming to know who Batman/Bruce is, but falling for a sociopath, forgiving everything he does and praising that Bruce is BFF with a guy who blew up a bridge, killed people in cold blood, started fights and riots just to see people get hurt, etc.

    Funny part is that I had to see both paths first to start any kind of discussion on ep5. Didn't want to have my opinion affected b

  • I just played them both. I think there are two things Vigilante did better. The ending where Joker's fighting Batman and laughing and you can audibly hear him breaking inside, and the option to tell Selina that you love her as you were going unconscious. (That gave me chills) Everything else Villain did better.

  • edited March 2018

    I played both. I feel like villain is the best way to go. It is a hella of a ride and I love that Bruce can just hate John now. But vigilante was cute. Just not near as amazing or hardcore as the villain path. I mean that path just gets the feels. Vigilante route is very mellow and your not exactly feeling the pressure to go and find Waller... Like who cares right? Hahaha. But damn.... Villain path is just intense! I was slightly disappointed I didn't get to break Bruce' code and let John die. But I do love the whole 'I wish I never met you' and Bruce getting stabbed and John going to the asylum and burning a voodoo doll of Bruce.... it was epic-ly dramatic! Therefore amazing!
    Vigilante.... yeah too mellow and not enough destruction and I feel like, for a batman game, that kind of thing is sorely needed. The end, if you keep the friendship, is super cute though.
    But I did kind of get sick of everyone blaming Bruce/Batman for everything that happened. Like the pact already existed and John was already in it and he was in love with Harley and she was just as bad of an influence so really Bruce being there did little to no difference. So their all blaming Bruce/Batman and literally none of it is his fault. Like yeah, Bruce shouldn't have given them the key-thingy but Waller was supposed to stop them from actually getting anything and decided to let them have it, so again, not his fault. I mean its like this guy is taking all these physical and mental beatings and they all just gotta pile more of it on? I felt so bad for Bruce by the end of it.

  • edited March 2018

    Vigilante wins for me.

  • edited March 2018

    Wow, really?!
    In my end, he kept the doll and put lipstick on it to give it a smile--- nice to know what he'd do if you decide to hate him

    Bruce getting stabbed and John going to the asylum and burning a voodoo doll of Bruce.... it was epic-ly dramatic! Therefore amazing!

    GamerLady posted: »

    I played both. I feel like villain is the best way to go. It is a hella of a ride and I love that Bruce can just hate John now. Bu

  • Lol, really?! That is cool! How did you manage that?

    Saiyamon posted: »

    Wow, really?! In my end, he kept the doll and put lipstick on it to give it a smile--- nice to know what he'd do if you decide t

  • You have to tell Joker that you had fun. There are five different endings.

    GamerLady posted: »

    Lol, really?! That is cool! How did you manage that?

  • edited March 2018

    I dunno, I think because I was mainly picking the sorta nice choices. Like play along during dinner, didn't reveal his secret with the map to Harley, etc,
    Including picking the choice about liking the good times, instead of wishing we never met or hating him;;

    Overall I'm pretty happy with the way things turned out and hopefully there's a season 3 one day

    GamerLady posted: »

    Lol, really?! That is cool! How did you manage that?

  • I know! I neeeedddd a season 3!! Especially after this. And I'd love for something super drastic to bring Bruce back as batman if he gave up being batman for Alfred. Agh, there's just so much more I want to see from this series.

    Saiyamon posted: »

    I dunno, I think because I was mainly picking the sorta nice choices. Like play along during dinner, didn't reveal his secret with

  • It comes down to one simple choice. Want the lipstick? Tell him you had fun. Want the burning? Tell him you wish you never met him.

    Saiyamon posted: »

    I dunno, I think because I was mainly picking the sorta nice choices. Like play along during dinner, didn't reveal his secret with

  • Five? Doesn't each path has just two?

    • Burning Bruce's doll
    • Doll with lipstick
    • Visit John
    • John breaks Bruce picture

    I just saw and heard of 4.

    AnimalBoy posted: »

    You have to tell Joker that you had fun. There are five different endings.

  • Either way the differences are cool. I wonder what happens if you say your not friends with him in vigilante route? I couldn't not be his friend cause he hit me in the feels with that moment of 'were we ever friends?' And then it was just amazingly cute when Bruce visits. That end made the vigilante path enjoyable for me.

    AnimalBoy posted: »

    It comes down to one simple choice. Want the lipstick? Tell him you had fun. Want the burning? Tell him you wish you never met him.

  • edited March 2018
    1. Visit John
    2. John sees Batman outside his window.
    3. John sees the bat signal outside his window.
    4. John puts lipstick on the doll.
    5. John burns the doll.
    Kaelthas posted: »

    Five? Doesn't each path has just two? * Burning Bruce's doll * Doll with lipstick * Visit John * John breaks Bruce picture I just saw and heard of 4.

  • What?!?!? Okay... How do you get those ones?

    AnimalBoy posted: »

    * Visit John * John sees Batman outside his window. * John sees the bat signal outside his window. * John puts lipstick on the doll. * John burns the doll.

  • edited March 2018

    It's the vigilante choices. Tell him you weren't friends and stay as Batman and he'll see Batman outside his window. Tell him you weren't friends and quit being Batman and he'll see the bat signal for a moment before it gets shut off.

    GamerLady posted: »

    What?!?!? Okay... How do you get those ones?

  • edited March 2018

    Same, I feel like that may end up being the case in season 3-- even though you choose not to be Batman, that you can come back. Alfred might be a little mad about you going back as Batman... maybe? But this time, you might need to put on the cowl

    I could honestly play up to 10 or so seasons if they keep up this quality in their episodes. LOL
    I'm hoping for Talia Al Ghul to come in, either that or Mad Hatter! Those two I would love to see how they'd handle them. Or maybe like Scarecrow?

    Heck, I wanna see freaking Killer croc too! I wanna fight him

    But I feel if they do bring in Talia, it might cause conflict with BatCat then if you choose to have them be together romantically? And if Talia is a secondary romance option

    It comes down to one simple choice. Want the lipstick? Tell him you had fun. Want the burning? Tell him you wish you never met him.

    Ohh, Okay, that's a good answer for Gamer if she ever wants to go back and replay <3

    (Also sorry I talk too much LOL;; )

    GamerLady posted: »

    I know! I neeeedddd a season 3!! Especially after this. And I'd love for something super drastic to bring Bruce back as batman if he gave up being batman for Alfred. Agh, there's just so much more I want to see from this series.

  • Yep, saw it. It was awesome! Made me wanna replay for sure lol. But yes, some of the other villains would be fun! I also wouldn't mind seeing some old ones again.

    Saiyamon posted: »

    Same, I feel like that may end up being the case in season 3-- even though you choose not to be Batman, that you can come back. Al

  • Joker kills what could be possibly be hundreds of people in the villain ending. Not a hundred, hundreds. For God's sake, he blows up Gotham biggest hospital with a biological weapon. How many people you think would die there? The news on the Batcave actually say that 112 persons died at Wayne Tower, and that was just one attack.

    The Children of Arkham barely kill a dozen persons or so on screen. And there is no way they could have reached those numbers in the Penguin path, Batman and the GCPD were able to fight them, unlike Joker and his bombs.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    What is it with people needing to trash other people's paths or choices to feel like theirs is the best there is? Sounds like a sh

  • In terms of storyline quality I do think that, especially the dinner, make the villain route a real winner. The vigilante thing is a bit disjointed tbh. However I do feel that both fit a certain playstyle.

    A more canon Batman would not go for the vigilante thing. Selina is one thing but she is a robber. John is either close to attempting murder or actually murdering people waaaaaaay before he ever turns into your sidekick. Hence sticking with him like that would only fit with a Batman who totally embraced his darker side, pissed everyone around him off (because no one who isn't like Joker or Batman would ever understand his reasons for trying to pull John back or would at one point or another tell him to stop it because it isn't working) and thus sees this relationship with John as basically saving himself if he had ever given into his dark impulses. Canon Batman would simply give him a choice: Go into a mental institute and get help or I will hunt you down and lock you up.

  • I said think your a "Hero" and Gotham is much worse off, nothing about not acting like a damaged/flawed Bruce/Batman if you choose not to trust John/Joker. I think you much more "Rude" then me if you can't pick up on that.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    I have no issues with that / adds some polite discussion to the forums like this. Saying that you're not playing as Bruce

  • KaelthasKaelthas Banned
    edited March 2018

    So my Bruce and the Bruce of everyone who has the Villain path is a damaged and flawed Batman because we didn't trust John?

    I said think your a "Hero" and Gotham is much worse off, nothing about not acting like a damaged/flawed Bruce/Batman if you choose not to trust John/Joker. I think you much more "Rude" then me if you can't pick up on that.

  • Not necessarily damaged or flawed, but pragmatic and fiercely loyal to their own code. Whether it was self defense or not, at the end of the day John still killed those agents, and considering how unhinged he's come across throughout the rest of the season, and how much he seems to be fascinated by violence, some people just wouldn't be willing to trust him after that.

    I was willing to give him another chance and try to prevent him from completely falling in to the abyss, but after bombing the GCPD and killing several more people in the process, I figured he was too far gone and had to be locked away for good.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    So my Bruce and the Bruce of everyone who has the Villain path is a damaged and flawed Batman because we didn't trust John?

  • If they DID do a season 3.. I kinda wish we'd been given a few episodes of the Joker, instead of half a episode. He'd prob make a cameo perhaps but that would be it annoyingly!! Adore the character!!

  • I wouldn't say it's a damaged Batman, but between the two stories, if we check casualties, taking John close to us was the best solution.

    It doesn't mean people who did villain joker's path are trash or that it was a pure logical choice. John is unpredictable, so it could have been the other way around. I did both paths and I enjoyed both of them really much.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    So my Bruce and the Bruce of everyone who has the Villain path is a damaged and flawed Batman because we didn't trust John?

  • When can Batman hold John's hand in the episode? Is it during the vigilante or villain path?

    Holding John's hand even while he hits the bottom of the abyss is one of the best aspects of episode 5, imo. I can only pray Telltale will incorporate our decisions with Joker's character into the third season, if it happens.

  • edited March 2018

    In the vigilante path you talk John into giving you the virus and when you take the virus John puts his other hand on top of yours. If that counts. Otherwise, I’m trying to remember when that came up. I played the vigilante route but don’t remember holding his hand other than that.

    When can Batman hold John's hand in the episode? Is it during the vigilante or villain path?

  • Oh okay, I thought maybe there was some hidden choice I missed after the fight at the chemical plant. Or that maybe somehow it was a choice during the villain route, which seemed less-than-unlikely, but I couldn't be sure since I haven't played it yet!

    AnimalBoy posted: »

    In the vigilante path you talk John into giving you the virus and when you take the virus John puts his other hand on top of yours

  • It is the "best" and most sensible choice, to ensure another psychopath isn't born. It is the ideal option. Unfortunately, real life isn't ideal, and Batman has a curse of creating his own demons sometimes.

    Thematically, I felt like the Vigilante route was kinda contrived. It felt orchestrated, like something you could only pull if you knew the Joker would turn into a villain if you don't treat him nicely. With Batman's trust issues, keeping people at bay, I just couldn't see him playing nice with John. He's no Spider-Man, well known for being antisocial in many mediums, even going to the length of preparing sabotage options for his own Justice League members just in case they turn rogue. He's not going to put on kid gloves and handle John gently in my opinion.

    That's one reason why I'm replaying the entire game to get the Joker ending, which feels more appropriate. Batman's own existence causing the birth of his greatest enemy. It feels "right," like it's fate.

  • In Batman The Dark Knight Batman has only one rule and that is that he doesn't kill.

    I have used all four of the save files that you have with the first Batman game and carried each story over to season 2.

    These are the titles I gave each file.

    Save File 1 re-named Good Batman
    Save File 2 re-named Bad Batman
    Save File 3 re-named Good and Bad Batman
    Save File 4 re-named 50/50 Batman.

    All four of my Batman's have the same rule as The Dark Knight movie's Batman he doesn't kill. (although in the case of Bad Batman and 50/50 it is more because he can't than he doesn't. Due to the fact I had both confess to Alfred how they wish they could kill their parents killer Joe Chill and I am sure there are others on their list from both seasons)

    As far as Good Batman is concerned not only does this 'no killing' rule apply to himself. It also applies to everybody else around him. An if anybody crosses that line/breaks that rule then whether they are a friend of not he will take them in.

    He did it with Harvey after he blew up that city block
    He did it with Tiffany after it was discovered that she was the one responsible for Riddler's murder.

    An He tried to do it with John after he was found in the fun house with all of those dead agents.

    As far as Bruce being a hypocrite for not trusting John but trusting everybody else (excluding also Harley) at the dinner table is concerned.

    That is a load of you know what.

    There was only one other person apart from Harley and John who had committed murder at that dinner table. An the only reason Bruce hadn't done anything about it was because he didn't know until John revealed it to him that it was Tiffany that was responsible for Riddler's death.

    Alfred was there because he had lied.
    Selina was there because she was a thief.

    In my personal opinion what would have been/be hypocritical is if Bruce didn't trust John after he killed those agents and took him into custody but instead of taking Tiffany into custody for the murder of Riddler he instead decided to take her under his wing.

    That would then be proof of Bruce being a hypocrite and not standing by his one rule instead making it 'one rule for one and another rule for the rest'

    An as for the opening gas attack by Joker and Harley in the villain episode and how it apparently makes anything any of the previous villain's of batman's telltale did in terms of body count look like little kids playing soccer against any FIFA team. An also makes Bruce more of a hero if he tries keeping John close rather then pushing him away preventing this massacre.

    First of all Bruce doesn't know what the consequences of his trusting or not trusting John is going to be.

    So that gas attack is simply one of the many examples in the both seasons of the game of how 'all actions/decisions have consequences'

    Bruce doesn't trust John and the consequence of him no longer trusting him is Joker tries to get back at Bruce by hurting something he loves/cares about that being Gotham.

    I think the fact that Bruce tries to take John in shows how he is a man of principle and he puts those principles over his friendship or put it another way he doesn't let his friendship compromise his principles.

    Does this make him a hero?

    Arguable I guess it depends on your point of view.

    In my personal opinion it does because a hero is willing to do what needs to be done despite personal feelings.

    Besides at the end of episode 5 after everything John/Joker has put him and his family and friends through (good) Bruce does still tell John how he did consider him a friend by saying how they did have some good times before John became a murderer.

    An while my Good and Bad Batman and 50/50 Batman trusted John (the reason good and bad trusted him is because they were friends and 50/50 trusted him simply to use him to stop Harley)

    I don't personally think or feel or believe nor do I see how you can look at the situation in the fun house and not either know or believe John to be lying.

    I mean he claims he acted in self defence grabbed a weapon and just started swinging but if that was the case how you do explain the female agent with the gun shot wound to the back?

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