Did Bruce "love" John? About the "You broke my heart John" option

Sooo, in the villain path final fight, you have the option to tell that to John, getting a... pretty emotional response from Bruce. What do you guys think that dialogue really meant?

I put here what I already said in youtube. A lot of people said that it is some kind of romantic love, but I think that's a very simplistic interpretation. I think it's more complicated and has to do more with the classic Joker-Batman relationship, with the difference of them having been "friends" before John became a villain:

Thinking that this is romantic love is just misinterpreting things in my opinion.

My point of view is that Bruce needed to believe he could turn John good to convince himself that he can make someone livinv in the edge of darkness good. He wanted him to prove the point that everyone can redeem themselves and change for the better, like he can tell Catwoman at episode 3. That Batman is a force of good that gets the better of everyone. When John not only didn't change for the better, but instead used Bruce trust and advices to become an horrible monster that killed hundred of innocents, he felt destroyed. His influence only helped Joker become what he wants to destroy.

Joker, on his part, doesn't see anything wrong with their new relationship. He sees it as beautiful, because he is the perfect villain for Batman, and they are meant to fight forever. But that's also because he can't move on, and he needs Bruce to be part of his life no matter what happens. If he can't be his friend, he needs to force him to be enemies, and from his point of view, that relationship still works.

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Comments

  • Someone had to go there... You just couldn't help yourself could you? lmao.

  • Hahaha, but I literally have debunked the whole romantic interpretation of the line.

    I don't think it was meant that way, but more in a "i need you to believe I can make someone better" way.

    Someone had to go there... You just couldn't help yourself could you? lmao.

  • hum... I would say that they are in love with each other, but that's not the kind of love Bruce can have for Catwoman. I think it's even deeper and stronger than that, yet... at the same time, I don't really know... there are undeniable romantic elements as well depending on your choices I suppose. You just have to pay attention.

    John seems to completely forget Harley even existed in the vigilante playthrough, all he cares about is '' to be like Bruce/Batman'', ''to be loved by Bruce/Batman'', ''to be a hero'' so he can be with Bruce/Batman, when he screamed ''Why won't you love me ? '' at Bruce back at the cafe he definitly meant Bruce not harley....change my mind :smiley: . Harley ? Well he doesn't even care Batman's out there fighting and shocking her, he doesn't particularly mind she is enslaved by Waller or at the very least not nearly as much as he cares about Waller lying about him killing Riddler.
    He throws bombs that could very well hurt her when he is worried about Batman running to save them and affected when he sees Batman is hurt.
    He is not in love with Harley... come on now. In the villain version he goes out of his way to make Bruce feel what he felt, to let Bruce know he broke his heart and yet he goes and make out with Harley right next to him and say ''he dodged a Bullet''...typical salty ex boyfriend behavior. ( I also need to point out that he left a card for Bruce saying he undressed and redressed him since he didn't want everyone to realize he is Batman... that's something ).
    Does he seem to have moved on to you ? Bruce makes a puppy face asking him not to kill him and Joker oblige. Of course, he wants him alive, he wants to hurt him and everyone around him, he wants to show him that every single one of his friend his dirty so he shouldn't believe he is ''too good for him'' but... he certainly doesn't want him dead... just look at the failed QTE option in the last villain Joker fight... Joker doesn't know what to do with himself... ). Harley tho ? she is sick, she might die, he doesn't really care... he is just worried she might be angry at him. If Bruce was the one dying he wouldn't pull that shit believe me.

    You are right when you say that Bruce believed that John could be ''good'', and I agree with every thing you said about both of their point of views. This is more complex than just '' I'd kiss and fuck that guy tbh, I like to be with him''... But i think Batman and Joker's relationship has always been about ambiguity, and there's enough to back up a more ''romantic'' interpretation of that same line if we look at the game as a whole.

    Bruce made me seriously rethink his sexuality lol. If John is clearly too obsessed with Bruce to ( truly ) care about anyone else well Bruce can optionnaly forget about an enslaved Catwoman because all he can think about is John ( and Waller ... kinda ) . And sure, Bruce saw Joker as a threat so of course he would have the frontseat in his mind. However, even Alfred is troubled by Bruce optional devotion for Joker. He doesn't want to abandon him, he might have his feelings getting in the way of ''justice'' ( just like he can discuss it with John in episode 3 before he teaches him to throw a batarang ). The way Alfred abruptly stop his sentence saying '' You're not...''' and it all becomes awkward is extremely suspicious.. what was he gonna say ?

    Telltale know what they are doing, they know there will be a romantical reading of Bruce and John's feelings for each other, and they did it on purpose. It's obvious enough for me.

    I mean...

    do I have to say it ? Do you think it was just an accident... just like the unnecessary hand holding as he says Batman he trusts him ? he didn't even say no homo. ( I do think the hand holding was suppose to emphasize how much trust John has in Batman and Batman's ideal of justice as he is ready to put his grudges in a hold and try out the no killing rule if Batman respects his part of the deal...which he didn't... because he let Waller run free... I am just saying Telltale know what they are doing. )

    Moreover, I find it odd that Harley looks at Bruce everytime she shares a moment a more romantic moment with John... You might not have picked up on that but I think a good exemple is in the elevator before the picture in the beginning of episode 4 or at the end as John is trying to get the virus from her. She does seem to try and emphasize that John is hers... and if Bruce and John relationship cannot be compared to the one she has with John ( platonic vs romantic ) then why does she even bother trying to make Bruce jealous ? and most importantly why does she succeed. Bruce looks affected in every single one ot these moment and he can optionnaly point out that John is over her... that's similar to the moment Joker tells ''catlady'' to back off from Batman in the vigilante route, tries to get her to betray Bruce in the villain one or tells Freeze to go and fight his own hero. There're multiple reason he is doing that ( among them is getting his point accross and protecting Batman wellbeing ) , but Telltale intended to make him sound like a jealous boyfriend and it would take a lot to change my mind...

    Ambiguity... as I said... that's what Batjokes is all about.

  • I agree with you. I don't think this can be interpreted as some sort of "romatic" love. Bruce (based on your character, of course) loved John, but not romantically. He was a genuine friend to him; he convinces himself (as we can see in the codex during previous episodes) that John is lost and just needs someone to guide him in the right direction.

    Bruce believes this, Bruce needs to believe that John can be better, and the fact that in the villain path John decides that his purpose is to make Bruce's life as miserable as possible tears him apart. The fact that John takes his friendship and turns it into some kind of twisted, self destructive obsession is what pains him.

    Bruce spends a lot of time this season trying to convince other people (such as Selina, for example) that it's never too late to stray from a bad path. John, the person who idolized Bruce, can't do this, in fact, Bruce creates Joker in both scenarios (Vigilante and Villain).

    This is what Joker was trying to say during the tests in the funhouse: Bruce Wayne KILLED John Doe, one way or another. Now, there's only Joker. Joker did manage to shatter Bruce's spirit, and the "You broke my heart, John" response confirms it.

    Of course, this is just my interpretation and it comes from a perspective in which John Doe was genuinely Bruce's friend. Telltale leaves a lot up to us to define the relationship between John and Bruce

  • I was hoping for a Bruce-Joker relationship myself :D and I totally said the you broke my heart line

  • why was this thread created...I mean it was pretty clear dude you're overthinking it

  • For the memes, shiz and giggles I think.

    why was this thread created...I mean it was pretty clear dude you're overthinking it

  • The relation between Joker and Batman has always been ambiguous. I think Frank Miller's Joker portrayed that well, tho the Flashpoint does that too in some ways (Batman is in that universe Thomas Wayne and Joker is Martha...)
    To me in the vigilante path the Joker is more attracted to the idea of justice and to Batman. That's the person he wants to be.

    In the villain's path it's imo far more ambiguous. I believe in this one he's more attracted to Bruce than the Batman's figure. The whole point of the episode is Joker trying to show Bruce how rejection feels like.

  • As much as I want to believe Bruce was conveying that he was in love with John, I'm not too sure he was COMPLETELY in love with him. I think there is definitely something there though. I think it is actually John who was always in love with Bruce, while Bruce was always conflicted with the emotions he felt towards him.

    To say it was an ordinary friendship though and there wasn't something deeper throws me off a bit. I guess some people can feel this way depending on there choices. But playing through normally on my part with both Villian/Vigilante Joker, it definitely came off as Telltale trying to highlight that there was always a romantic aspect to there relationship.

    The fact that Joker's sole purpose in the Villian route is Bruce all to himself. If he can't keep him as a friend, he will keep him as an enemy because he never wants to be apart from Bruce. He once again goes against "the women he claims to love" just to mess around with Bruce, and Harley even addresses this saying "you will never get over him, will you?!" or "You chose him over me?!". Bruce can even say to Alfred while on the computer that "John's always been obsessed with me, he wants me all for himself". Then the moment at the end when there fighting where Joker bites Bruce then says "Don't be shy, Brucie! Come on, pucker up!!". Lol is that something you say to someone you think of as a brother? Or just a friend? I could also get into the Vigilante play through but that would take too long.

    Anyways this is just my opinion and the way that I see there relationship. I think there relationship is deeper than classic friendship. It can definitely be interpreted in many ways, nobody here is wrong. You play it how you want to play it, and how you want your relationship to be with each individual character. That's what makes Telltale so awesome with character development.

  • I don't think it was romantic. That being said I did feel like they were pushing with some fan-service there. But I think that Bruce, if you decide it, loves John. But love isn't always romantic and for it to be romantic would be kind of out of the blue and wouldn't make much sense (for me, which I'll explain why). But it could also be that telltale wanted people to have their own perspective on it.
    I wouldn't say its like what batman and catwoman can have. Those two are sexual attraction and understanding and definite romance while John and Bruce are more a conflicted comradery and that's a bit one-sided. Because John is just... he's full-on obsessed with Bruce/ Batman. Whereas Bruce didn't feel as deeply, if he does get a bit obsessed it probably has to do with all that trauma John put him through resulting in a few loose screws.
    But truthfully (the why) Bruce saying 'I did care, I needed you and what not' threw me for a loop. Considering John going villain is based on if Bruce decides not to trust him. That there is a definite red-flag. To love someone you are giving them your trust, which Bruce doesn't. So it's a bit weird for Bruce to suddenly be in love with John, especially after he killed all his employees and other innocent people. It just seemed rather out of place. I could see it in vigilante, but vigilante they make it rather clear what John and Bruce has is a friendship. I mean, at the end John asks 'were we ever really friends?' not 'were you ever in love with me?' And, from what I remember, they don't have near as intimate? a dialogue as that.
    I think telltale was trying to be true to the comic aspect of the relationship when it came to the villain path? And everyone kind of has their own views on that so I think its ultimately all about how you want to see it? But I don't see their relationship being anymore meaningful than the rest of Bruce's relationships. Like I don't see him suddenly caring more for John than he can for Tiffany, Alfred, Gordon or Selina.

  • I don't believe in the romance theory. But...if we're bringing this up i'm surprised no one mentioned vigilante Joker saying that he wanted Bruce to love him.

  • I was gonna bring that up in my post above, but I didn't want it to turn out longer than it already was and I didn't want to start going into every single piece of evidence as if I'm trying to convince people cause that's definitely not what I was going for. But yeah that was pretty crazy! The whole thing was pretty emotional. Still felt bad for John in both endings.

    AnimalBoy posted: »

    I don't believe in the romance theory. But...if we're bringing this up i'm surprised no one mentioned vigilante Joker saying that he wanted Bruce to love him.

  • When did John ask Bruce about if he ever loved him on the Vigilante version? Gosh both episodes were just an emotional rollarcoaster! I still feel teary when John said to Bruce towards the end that he didn't hate him as they had such a good time together ah man
    John was just a troubled soul with no control of his emotions and low self esteem.. I just wish he didnt go back to Arkham

  • I very much interpreted the episode as romantic for John and Bruce (if you played it that way anyway).

    And even if you didn't go for the romantic sounding options ("you broke my heart") the canon lines like "wanted to be loved by you", "if you ever loved me" are pretty damn romantic (I don't know about you but I don't say shit like that to my friends). Villain John was basically acting like a brokenhearted ex the entire episode. I got this in the results for Harley at the end of the Villain episode:

    Even Harley realised that Bruce is way more important to John than she is. Harley, the supposed love interest for John herself said this:

    Harley really just seemed like some kind of rebound for John this episode after he got hurt by Bruce. In the Vigilante version John basically forgot about her (that was fast for someone he claimed to be in love with), you even get a chance to gloat in Harley's face as Bruce "He's OVER you".

  • No. Just no.

    Mellorine posted: »

    hum... I would say that they are in love with each other, but that's not the kind of love Bruce can have for Catwoman. I think it'

  • No. There is no romance between the two. They are both straight people and there is nothing wrong with that.

    Get over it.

  • Are you the writer on Telltale? No?
    Then you have no say in how straight they are in this universe.
    Get over it.

    No. There is no romance between the two. They are both straight people and there is nothing wrong with that. Get over it.

  • Passive aggressive I see. I understand your opinion on thinking they are both straight people and there is no romance between them. But there are multiple perspectives and opinions in a choice based game, so telling people to "get over it" as if your opinion is a fact isn't very nice.

    I could literally say "Yes. There is a romance between the two. They are both gay/bisexual. Get over it". But I understand that the John/Bruce relationship has many different interpretations, therefore I would never state my opinion like that as if it was superior to everyone else's. And you shouldn't either...

    No. There is no romance between the two. They are both straight people and there is nothing wrong with that. Get over it.

  • Towards the end, after they've been fighting for a bit and they go in the room at the top while Joker is staring at the board of pictures he has. He says something like "I've spent so much time looking at you, admiring you, wanting to be like you.. Be loved by you...". Super emotional lol.

    hanwombat posted: »

    When did John ask Bruce about if he ever loved him on the Vigilante version? Gosh both episodes were just an emotional rollarcoast

  • edited March 2018

    @andrearnettbraun

    I am sorry but this discussion won't be productive unless you explain me why I am wrong. I merely observed, gathered facts, and explained my interpretation of these facts. Your ''no. just no.'' won't be enough to convince me I am wrong.

    I have a really hard time using the word platonic while talking about John's feelings for Bruce especially, because it's clearly more than that. In the villain route, Bruce says Joker's feelings for Harley ''don't sound like love'' because if it was love then he'd be helping her get what she wants. Interesting that's what Batman thinks is the definition of love. Do you know who's the only character John has been consistantly trying to help ever since episode 4 back in season 1 ?
    He's helped Bruce;
    He lied to Harley for Bruce
    He gave up on the pact for Bruce.
    He put his life in danger for Bruce.
    He helped the agency ( which he hates ) getting their hands on Harley for no one else but Bruce.
    He's tried to change for Bruce.
    He admires Bruce, he thinks Bruce is handsome, he thinks Bruce is smart, he admires Batman's morals ( up until episode 5 ), he finds Bruce charming and goes out of his way to get his attention even after Bruce destroys him in episode 4/5. He wants Bruce to notice him, to love him. His entire life these days revolves around Bruce and Bruce is basically what motivates him to do what he does in episode 5.

    That's love to me. In fact, he is so in love that's unhealthy, he is madly in love and obsessed; but I don't blame him it's not like he has anyone else to hold on to.

    I mean Harvey was a good exemple of a friendship and a damn good one as well since Bruce was the only one able to reach him. Not once did I think Harvey and Bruce's feelings for each other went beyond friendship, maybe I missed something or maybe the writer didn't try to give such dimension to their friendship... I do think the romantic implications were intended for Bruce and John, the evidences are solid enough for me.

    No. Just no.

  • edited March 2018

    From me, the only thing I am going to say, if the staff read this thread, about all the small subtleties in the relationship of JUCE thoroughly and carefully created (clearly intended for the queer audience) is this:

    You Telltale guys and gals are amazing.

    Avelyn posted: »

    I very much interpreted the episode as romantic for John and Bruce (if you played it that way anyway). And even if you didn't g

  • lol. Man there are much more than those things you listed. But I don't think we need to mention them. ;)

    Mellorine posted: »

    @andrearnettbraun I am sorry but this discussion won't be productive unless you explain me why I am wrong. I merely observed, g

  • edited March 2018

    Telltale I think even ships this too(?) or am I wrong? Because I remember seeing a video where when they played it, and asked if John was in love with Bruce option, and one of them said they don't think they believe that no. Then there's a few that were reading fanfics for them in the telltale section on AO3, and even commented on a story and said they were going to put in a word for an author to work at Telltale one day; since they wrote the characters so in-character

    I remember reading about it on tumblr or on here(?) some weeks back.

    Mellorine posted: »

    @andrearnettbraun I am sorry but this discussion won't be productive unless you explain me why I am wrong. I merely observed, g

  • Yes and there was also a Telltale staff member who tweeted out before episode 5 that we should play both routes because there is a ton of batjokes in both of them! Not to mention the fact that even the voice actors (Troy Baker, and Anthony Ingruber) ship it hardcore. They are seriously my favorite voice actors haha.

    Saiyamon posted: »

    Telltale I think even ships this too(?) or am I wrong? Because I remember seeing a video where when they played it, and asked if J

  • edited March 2018

    It's a good line, and I picked it myself. It's platonic.

    I think this all kinda goes back to the scene in the alley with Joker. You get an opportunity to ask if he loves you, he hesitates, and says no. It takes him some thought, but I think he recognizes that his obsession with Bruce, his "worship" of what Bruce is, isn't love, or at least not love in the way that he was talking about. His goal was for Harley to be his lover, and Bruce to be his best friend. He even talks about how desperately he wanted Bruce to be friends with him in the Villain route. John feels strongly, STRONGLY about Bruce, don't get me wrong, but nothing about how they act seems flirtatious or romantically charged. You can even see the difference in how he acts around an actual romantic interest (Harley) on numerous occasions. Awkward and graceless, eventually transitioning to direct, flirtatious, and physical in the Villain route.

    Does Telltale leave it ambiguous? Yes, but I think it's only because of how close their relationship resembles a romantic one, not because it actually is one. The love in their relationship is far more complicated and cerebral. Any apparent "homoerotic tension" is just a byproduct of John's wild nature and deep-rooted obsession.

  • edited March 2018

    I think that those little hints only ryme with people that is actually queer. So, is left ambiguous intentionally.

    I remember reading not too long ago about a John romance option on this forums, and many people were upset on both sides. You may see it as platonic, but there is a lot of people that actually relate to that stuff. And like anything that is into the cultural and personal, people can feel differently on the same things.

    There is nothing wrong with John and Bruce being in love to me. Yet, im aware that not everyone will share that opinion. And I belive that Telltale, to avoid conflicts, left it open for interpretation.

    I'm very happy of the stuff they allowed, and you may not relate to that stuff but I do. I don't see anything platonic when you have a man claming to love a girl but at the end of the day betrays her for a man he obsses over. Even going to the huge leghts of revenge he did towards Bruce.

    Harley also manipulated him and used him. Did he react the same way towards her? Did he felt hurt, betrayed and full of hate and pain over her? No, he just simply abandons her. But not Bruce.

    For Bruce, he had to make him feel the exact same pain, the same anger he felt. I didn't even payed attention to his words as I did his actions. He fully loved Bruce.

    But that is only for me.

    Piggs posted: »

    It's a good line, and I picked it myself. It's platonic. I think this all kinda goes back to the scene in the alley with Joker.

  • Only as a friend :)

  • edited March 2018

    Unfortunately, when I posted a reply to a discussion about a character's sexuality before (in The Walking Dead universe), also created by Telltale Games, I was harassed by other members and [wrongfully] reported by a moderator, so I need to be extremely careful.

    However, a man can show affection for another man, whether that be by caring for them or becoming heartbroken from them, without there being any romantic implications. The reasons that you listed to support your claims can literally be said about any other male who Bruce has interactions with. They're not substantiated by facts, but are mere speculation. In the second episode of Batman: The Enemy Within, when John confesses to Bruce that he has fallen in love with the person that they were about to meet, Bruce can ask him if it was with himself, to which John affirmatively says, "no", hoping that they can still be friends, though. Just friends. Even when Bruce asks the question to John, he feels uncomfortable based on his facial expressions alone, if not by the tone of his voice.

    Your definition of love seems to be based on romanticism, and so you interpret Bruce's words in that way. Regardless, as I know that this won't convince you otherwise, especially if nothing else that I have said does, but love isn't necessarily defined by you simply helping someone. Bruce also knows this. He even recognizes the differences between love and lust. And even if you want to say that that's love, then it still doesn't have to be romanticized.

    @Katanas said:

    From me, the only thing I am going to say, if the staff read this thread, about all the small subtleties in the relationship of JUCE thoroughly and carefully created (clearly intended for the queer audience) is this:

    You Telltale guys and gals are amazing.

    Why do you seem to want Telltale Games to appeal to the LGBT community by exploring John's sexuality further? As a matter of fact, why do they have to even do this, why should they even do this? You can always just read a story written by a fan that romanticizes this.

    Mellorine posted: »

    @andrearnettbraun I am sorry but this discussion won't be productive unless you explain me why I am wrong. I merely observed, g

  • I probably missed hearing it due to battling the tears :(

    Suzy222 posted: »

    Towards the end, after they've been fighting for a bit and they go in the room at the top while Joker is staring at the board of p

  • edited March 2018

    Before I continue, I want to clarify that I'm not opposed to bisexual characters in games. I rolled my eyes when people freaked out over A New Frontier's determinant bisexual lines, and I wouldn't be upset if Telltale allowed a gay romance option in the future.

    But what this really boils down to for me is that, no, there actually is something wrong with Bruce and John being romantically in love with each other. Given who they are as individual people, it's just creepy. John Doe is supposed to be a sort of lost and confused individual, almost like a little brother to Bruce. John starts out with not much more than a stolen car to his name, doesn't remember his past, and has some serious mental/emotional problems. Bruce is a well-equipped billionaire that he entirely idolizes. The power dynamic in that situation would be unsettling and unhealthy if they entered some sort of relationship.

    On top of that, John really isn't in a position to be in a romantic relationship with anyone. The whole point of his character is that he isn't even done figuring himself out at a basic level.

    You seem to be saying that John's obsession with Bruce can't under any circumstances be non-romantic, too. Given that the Joker usually has some sort of obsession with Batman in the varying series that they've been in (most of them clearly not romantic), I don't think that's fair to say. Being obsessed with the idea of someone doesn't have to be romantic, especially considering how unstable John is. John admires Bruce intensely because he's a role model--he's fascinated by the empire Bruce maintains, he loves the brutality and fast action of Batman, etc.

    Like you said at the end, you're allowed to have your interpretation, and I can see how being queer could change your interpretation of certain lines. But I don't think that's what the writers were trying to fully communicate.

    Katanas posted: »

    I think that those little hints only ryme with people that is actually queer. So, is left ambiguous intentionally. I remember r

  • edited March 2018

    Oh yeah ? I know a bit about the mess that went down after the last episode of the walking dead about that specific subject. However, if it was recent, I definitly didn't see it since I try to stay away from the negativity of the walking dead's forum all together ( it's likely it changed but it used to be nothing but the same complaint on ANF over and over again... I got bored )

    However, a man can show affection for another man, whether that be by caring for them or becoming heartbroken from them, without there being any romantic implications. The reasons that you listed to support your claims can literally be said about any other male who Bruce has interactions with.

    A man can show affection for anoter man without there being any romantic implications. However there are in this case and it is wrong to say that ''every single male'' Bruce has interacted with has done all these things for him. I mean you cannot have wrote that and meant it.... In fact, it's wrong to say that more than one or two character be it male or female that Bruce has interacted with has done all these things for him.
    Every single male character ? Really ? Frank ? Willy ? Harvey ? Oswald ? Zellerbach ? Falcone ? Zsasz ? The guy with the puppet ? The big blue guy I forgot the name of ? You feel like they gave up everything they had built just for helping, hell just for Bruce's attention in the villain route of episode 5 ? That's a lie. None of them do half of these things. When did Zsasz go on about how much he wished Bruce had loved him ? When did Harvey ? Oswald ?
    Not even Catwoman is that much up Bruce's ass which might be surprising since she is quite familiar with that area in some people's game, including mine.
    The only other character that could possibly be as devoted as John to Bruce is Alfred, but even Alfred doesn't say doing things with Bruce gives him butterfly in his stomach because Alfred loves Bruce more than he loves anything or anybody else I am sure, but he loves him like a father loves his son.

    In the second episode of Batman: The Enemy Within, when John confesses to Bruce that he has fallen in love with the person that they were about to meet, Bruce can ask him if it was with himself, to which John affirmatively says, "no", hoping that they can still be friends, though. Just friends. Even when Bruce asks the question to John, he feels uncomfortable based on his facial expressions alone, if not by the tone of his voice.

    Kent Mudle ( I am pretty sure it was him, but in any case it was guy from Telltale ) said he isn't sure he can believe that no. I don't believe that no. John also says he is love with Harley and it is clear that no, he isn't. So I don't see why if one can be wrong the other couldn't. John said it himself to Bruce once Bruce said that John's feelings for Harley don't sound like love, the unconscious is a sticky wicket. Which means that his words say something, and he truly believes in what he is saying, yet his actions say something else and betrays feelings he might not have been conscious he had until episode 5 . No need to read Freud, to understand what this simple sentence mean for the John, Bruce and Harley dynamic.
    Sure, John saying he isn't in love with Bruce is a fact, but Villain Joker saying the unconscious is a sticky wicket when Bruce doubts his feelings for Harley is another fact, so are all the things John Joker does for Bruce. Those are not speculations, I have seen them in that game and I have played and watched that game enough to know John stealing or attempting to steal a criminal who put all their trust in him's laptop happened, he did it knowing what it meant for Harley, for the pact, and for him.

    Your definition of love seems to be based on romanticism, and so you interpret Bruce's words in that way. Regardless, as I know that this won't convince you otherwise, especially if nothing else that I have said does, but love isn't necessarily defined by you simply helping someone. Bruce also knows this. He even recognizes the differences between love and lust. And even if you want to say that that's love, then it still doesn't have to be romanticized.

    I said John's love for Bruce can hardly be called platonic, maybe but it's very difficult for me to do, and he is madly in love with him. I said Bruce's feelings for John were more ambiguous and the romantic interpretation of the line could find justification, I also said that Batjokes( and Bruce and John ) relationship itself was all about ambiguity so several interpretations made sense ( it's hard to label what they have anyway ) . I might be stubborn but I am not stupid. I can be convinced if your arguments are strong enough, but no, not every single male character did all the things I listed to and for Bruce... not even close, the one line you clinge onto has been doubted by Telltale's director and John himself...
    I know romance is not just ''helping someone'' but Bruce emphasize on that several times, he says it in episode 5 yes, but he says it on the cafe too. What to do to get someone you love's attention ? To have them see you ? ''Lay a helping hand with a problem they have'' - Bruce says ( be genuine ) make them believe you are the only one who can help them Bruce says ( Pull her strings ) . It seems that's pretty important for Bruce at the very least if he thinks that's the number one seduction method. Every single time, it's definitly a discussion about romantic love.
    I am not making it up.
    But even if ''helping someone'' does not suffice, well that's far from the only thing John does for Bruce. So yep.

    Unfortunately, when I posted a reply to a discussion about a character's sexuality before (in The Walking Dead universe), also cre

  • edited March 2018

    Yes, I commented on a discussion involving Javier's sexuality, and other members of the community were apparently sensitive to the subject, which caused unnecessary problems with others. Despite me having been completely respectful to others. I didn't even use derogatory terms to describe any particular individual. Fortunately, there were people who showed their support to me.

    Anyway, I disagree with you completely. Everything that I said, however, I meant. There are no romantic implications between Bruce and John (from my observation). I also never suggested that every male who Bruce has interacted with, has displayed affection in the same way as John. I only implied that it could be said about any other male who he has interacted. For example, Alfred has shown simple devotion to Bruce. John has an unhealthy obsession for Bruce. In what arguably resembles that of celebrity worship syndrome, where a person becomes overly involved with the details of a celebrity's personal and professional life.

    Selina Kyle and Iman Avesta are the only two characters who express a genuine interest in Bruce as wanting something more than friends. Harley, if anything, for example, only has a desire for his money, power, and influence. Her advances towards him are strictly sexual. Speaking of Harley, John probably does "love" her, but Bruce is just more important to him. There's a huge difference. Either way, you're not the only person who has played the game yourself and watched others play it. On another website, I have even done some written work for Batman: The Enemy Within, where I needed to carefully observe things. What you're saying, it's mere speculation without substantiated facts, until something can be determined by truth. And again, a stronger case can be made for Selina and Avesta than it can be for John.

    By the way, I'm not clinging to anything. I simply used something as reference. I'm also using logic and reason to discern things. If Ken Mudle has doubts about something, that doesn't mean anything. If he had doubts about directing another season of Batman, does that mean that he won't direct it? No, it doesn't. And Bruce is just highlighting one of the different aspects of love to John at the cafe. Not only that, but that love, again, doesn't mean romanticism. It's very simple.

    Mellorine posted: »

    Oh yeah ? I know a bit about the mess that went down after the last episode of the walking dead about that specific subject. Howev

  • Bruce and John have a platonic relationship, if you ask me.

  • Well, no proofs? There are some yet.
    You don't see Harvey Dent saying "why won't you love me Bruce?" nor Penguin saying he wanted to be loved by him. Villain Joker reacts badly if Selina is saved (which is one of love interest of Bruce) yet he doesn't show the same jealousy with others characters (Gordon, Alfred, Tiffany). In the end of episode 5 villain Joker delivers the same kind of speech as he did to Harley to say his love in episode 4 (a joke without punchline/shadow within your shadow), and so on..

    I don't want to mean bad but it looks more like you don't want to see that those proofs exist.

    As I said before in the comics their relation is ambiguous and Telltale did a good job to translate that. As for Harley it's clear he doesn't care much about her. That's exactly how their relationship was portrayed before:

    Sorry to repeat myself but their relations are made ambiguous. It's made in a way you can believe either they are straight, or that their relation are in some kind of blur or that he totally fell for Batman.
    You can have your interpretation but you can't deny that these proofs exist tho.

    Yes, I commented on a discussion involving Javier's sexuality, and other members of the community were apparently sensitive to the

  • edited March 2018

    When did I say that?

    Harvey Dent and Oswald Cobblepot are two completely different characters. You can't compare them to John Doe. You also don't see either one of them with something comparable to celebrity worship syndrome for Bruce, which can easily be misconstrued as romantic interest, as I already explained before is what John seems to have.

    The Joker and Harley Quinn's relationship has different aspects to it. However, Harley is the Joker's romantic interest, and Batman is just an obsession of his. There's, again, a huge difference. Either way, regurgitating arguments that were presented by others isn't convincing me. Besides that, if I can have my interpretation, then I can also reject this "evidence" that you (or others) have provided.

    Euron posted: »

    Well, no proofs? There are some yet. You don't see Harvey Dent saying "why won't you love me Bruce?" nor Penguin saying he wanted

  • edited March 2018

    You're stating your opinion as facts: "what you're saying, it's mere speculation without any substantial facts" "I simply used something as reference. I'm also using logic and reason to discern things".
    "Not only that, but that love, again, doesn't mean romanticism. It's very simple.
    " It kinda means we're dumb if we don't acknowledge your point, man.

    If you're talking in general, Harley was never the Joker's romantic interest. His creation was made to show toxic abuse. I think only suicide squad portrayed his relation to Harley as something linked to romance.
    But if you mean only in Telltale, it is sure new. Yet is it love if you don't care about what the other wants? I can't say. He'd betray Harley if she tries to kill Bruce, that'd requires a quite strong worship syndrome if he loves her.

    I think I brought new examples, saying I only "regurgitate" (passive-agressive much?) examples is a bit rude, if you want my opinion.

    So what I meant is: you can reject my interpretation (which isn't exactly as the same as Mellorine btw) but you can't reject the truth about the game: that the game, just as a lot of comics, is made in a way that their relation is really blurry and up to interpretation.

    When did I say that? Harvey Dent and Oswald Cobblepot are two completely different characters. You can't compare them to John D

  • edited March 2018

    No, your intelligence isn't based on understanding me. I was just explaining to you what went into my thought process. And, the 1990s introduced a romantic interest for the Joker in his former psychiatrist, Harley Quinn, who also became his villainous sidekick. She is definitely a romantic interest.

    I'm not being passive-aggressive, though. I don't know how my words have offended you, but it's really not to be taken that serious. Especially to insinuate that I'm being passive-aggressive with such a sarcastic tone. Also, I never said that you "only" regurgitate.

    Anyway, I reject your interpretation of the "truth" about the game. That's all.

    Euron posted: »

    You're stating your opinion as facts: "what you're saying, it's mere speculation without any substantial facts" "I simply used som

  • The 1990's was never meant as a romantic interest. He manipulates her, beats her, tries to kill her and shit. Have you even watch the video I brought? You can't use the worship syndrome in that case.

    "Also, I never said that you "only" regurgitate." Seeing you respond to my list of arguments only by this, you kinda meant it. Nothing sarcastically when I spoke about it.

    You seem to care only about facts but ignores completely when one brings you some. Discussing that way is quite unpleasant.

    No, your intelligence isn't based on understanding me. I was just explaining to you what went into my thought process. And, the 19

  • You people are too serious about this ship lol. It's getting beyond ridiculous now all these friends, romance and John did nothing wrong threads. I feel like the moderators need to set up one romance thread for everthing to clean up all these romance discussions that are retreading the same points.

    I myself have been interested in the potential of a Harley romance option but honestly it's not realistic based on what's happened and the narrative Telltale has told likewise so is a Joker romance. I think Bruce has made it pretty clear he is straight and has a public image of being a playboy womanizer.

    Euron posted: »

    The 1990's was never meant as a romantic interest. He manipulates her, beats her, tries to kill her and shit. Have you even watch

  • edited March 2018

    "I think Bruce has made it pretty clear he is straight and has a public image of being a playboy womanizer."
    Where exactly has he?not in my gameplay since he has refused all Catwoman's advances; plus like it has said in the comics, both Batman and the "womanizer Bruce" images are only "masks" and none of them is actually the "real Bruce".
    Not to mention, one can be bisexual as well

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