Sam & Max The Devil's Playhouse - control and interface discussion thread.

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  • edited March 2010
    Oh my God. Why do so many people ask the same questions about gamepad controller support for PC? I mean really, all it should take is one or two people to ask (one to ask if gamepads are supported and one to maybe ask if the buttons are customizable) and get an answer. But instead this thread is all "Does it support PS3 gamepads for PC?" "Does it support XBox 360 gamepads for PC?" "Does it support (insert gamepad style here) for PC?"

    The truth is, if it supports gamepads, then it supports gamepads. I would bet that if the game supported gamepads at all, then as long as your operating system supported a certain gamepad, then the game could use it. The style/brand/pulley-in-the-middle shouldn't matter. The controls for it would probably be assignable. Hell, I have a Super SmartJoy (SuperNES controller to USB adapter) and so long as the game would allow me to use a gamepad with just 8 buttons and a D-Pad, I bet you $10 it would work. wtf, I open this thread and like half the posts ask almost the same question about gamepads.
  • edited March 2010
    taumel wrote: »
    What i wonder is, after they made the decision going without point&click, if they ever, maybe due to the feedback of the users, considered adding point&click afterwards again.
    No.

    Source: This very thread.
  • edited March 2010
    Chyron8472 wrote: »
    Oh my God. Why do so many people ask the same questions about gamepad controller support for PC? I mean really, all it should take is one or two people to ask (one to ask if gamepads are supported and one to maybe ask if the buttons are customizable) and get an answer. But instead this thread is all "Does it support PS3 gamepads for PC?" "Does it support XBox 360 gamepads for PC?" "Does it support (insert gamepad style here) for PC?"

    The truth is, if it supports gamepads, then it supports gamepads. I would bet that if the game supported gamepads at all, then as long as your operating system supported a certain gamepad, then the game could use it. The style/brand/pulley-in-the-middle shouldn't matter. The controls for it would probably be assignable. Hell, I have a Super SmartJoy (SuperNES controller to USB adapter) and so long as the game would allow me to use a gamepad with just 8 buttons and a D-Pad, I bet you $10 it would work. wtf, I open this thread and like half the posts ask almost the same question about gamepads.

    My questions were directed at finding out what kind of on screen feedback we can expect based on our gamepad of choice, specifically Xbox 360 controllers, if that is what you are referring to.
  • edited March 2010
    Chyron8472 wrote: »
    The truth is, if it supports gamepads, then it supports gamepads. I would bet that if the game supported gamepads at all, then as long as your operating system supported a certain gamepad, then the game could use it.

    That actually wasn't true with Wallace & Gromit, unfortunately.
  • edited March 2010
    [TTG] Yare wrote: »
    Point & Click requires no work to implement; it's been built into our engine since day one. We're not using it because it imposes artificial limits on design and cinematography.

    Supporting consoles is much more work. Jake and I practically lived at work for two months as we iterated repeatedly on UI and control schemes for both pointers and gamepads. I would go home only to sleep for a few hours a day before returning to continue my work. I worked 7 days a week like this. Understand than I am salaried, and do not get paid for these hundreds of extra hours I worked; I did it willfully to ensure that when the game ships, people with pointers and people with gamepads will have two separate and good control schemes.

    Fair enough then, i can respect that, if you think its better, then i will trust in Telltale to make the right call, i just tend to get carried a bit away if its because of lazyness, lately the pc people seems to get shafted quite alot recently by Ubisoft, but thats another story.

    I hereby apologize for the rude behavior.
  • NickTTGNickTTG Telltale Alumni
    edited March 2010
    taumel wrote: »
    What i wonder is, after they made the decision going without point&click, if they ever, maybe due to the feedback of the users, considered adding point&click afterwards again. The argumentation pro vs. con keeps on going since W&G and normally TTG is kind of listening to their users as well, so?

    actually, we play the games internally with point and click controls. then when it's time to ship it, we comment it out of the code. :rolleyes:
  • WillWill Banned
    edited March 2010
    Nick is a liar and a bastard. Seriously though, if we wanted to just be lazy, we never would have changed anything. Would have been MUCH MUCH easier, believe me.
  • edited March 2010
    I love TTG.
  • edited March 2010
    NickTTG wrote: »
    actually, we play the games internally with point and click controls. then when it's time to ship it, we comment it out of the code. :rolleyes:

    You liar! You hardworking bastard! (Hey, I'm just taking Will's word for it. If you aren't a lying bastard, he's a lying bastard.)
  • edited March 2010
    Will wrote: »
    Nick is a liar and a bastard. Seriously though, if we wanted to just be lazy, we never would have changed anything. Would have been MUCH MUCH easier, believe me.

    I would've paid you & would continue to do so if only you were lazier...

    Can't you see that virtue lies in the middle? Being too industrious is just as bad as being too lazy.

    Update the graphics & the sound every now & then, come up with puzzles other than solve 3 things, move to the next part, solve 3 things, move to the next part, solve 3 things, move 3 thing... uh... well, you get the point, and you'll be gold.

    Yet the only one part that didn't need any touching was exactly the one you decided to fix.

    Cheers!
  • JakeJake Telltale Alumni
    edited March 2010
    What I enjoy the most about your posts is your Ed, Edd, and Eddy avatar.
  • edited March 2010
    Why, thank y...

    Hey, waiddaminute!

    I put a lot of effort & thought into my posts. I will not have them demeaned in such a manner!

    Nah, I'm kidding, I don't really put any thought into my posts.

    ...

    The first wiseguy that cracks a joke about having noticed it, gets it.

    Cheers!
  • edited March 2010
    Anyway, allow me to post a little song by Chas & Dave that I believe is very fitting to the subject.

    A little piece they like to call "When Days Were Long (But Far Too Short)" (For All We Had To Click).

    Chas & Dave

    I too, stumbled quite by chance upon a memory when I was rummaging through my game collection...

    You will say it's different now, not how it used to be. But I don't agree, somethings don't have to change anyhow, just look around & see.

    'Coz trees & flowers still they grow & buds appear in spring, birds will always sing, same as they did long ago (back when there was point & click).

    Sweet memories they bring...

    Cheers!
  • edited March 2010
    Oi, you can't post youtubes?

    The hell?
  • JakeJake Telltale Alumni
    edited March 2010
    You can't embed them but you can link to them.

    You obviously disagree with the direction we've gone with our control system. I don't know if you repeating yourself, or making fun of our design decisions, will help much. So I instead notice your avatar. I also have to admit that I was never much of an Ed, Edd, and Eddy fan, but I think it's funny to see your slightly pissed off, mocking posts, accompanied by what is undeniably a pretty dorky visage. It changes the tone of your text significantly :)
  • edited March 2010
    Also, you can edit your posts if you want. Not that I never double post, but I don't think I've ever triple-posted.
  • edited March 2010
    Ooof...

    You're gonna make me be serious for a moment, Jake. I hate being serious. Still...

    Look, I understand it's very frustrating to you guys. But it's frustrating to me too. My favourite game genre is undergoing the one change I never wanted it to go. And there's nothing I can do about it. Absolutely nothing.

    I know that what I'm doing here is hopeless, but at the same time I can't seem to stay put & let it go. I know I will, eventually, as hope is all but lost right now.

    As for the tone of my text, I never really wanted it to be taken too seriously... well, I obviously wanted that you guys would take the core of it, the essential bit, that is my protesting against these changes, seriously, but only that. So, instead of just whining, or insulting, I take a slightly mocking approach.

    Because, honestly, what else can I do? Well, I could invade your offices wielding a very large stick, but Gawd dammit, there I go again. I can't help it, it's in my blood.

    Still, and to close. This is yet another case of the artist becoming so engrossed in his work, that he loses track of what many fans really want. Sure, you'll always have your rabid fans who'll continue to support you even if you take a left turn & release a Dragon's Lair, not to mention the strength of your licenses, like Monkey Island, which will sell based on name & nostalgia power, no matter if it has a crappy story, or a really good story, like TOMI.

    Which makes it even more frustrating, because my whole experience with it was so frustrating, that I couldn't pick it up again, no matter how good that story is.

    Bah. No matter. You've set your sights on something I can't understand & there's no point droning on about it.

    Cheers!
  • edited March 2010
    I'm getting a new graphics card JUST FOR THIS GAME!!!!!! :D

    Looking GREAT so far!
  • edited March 2010
    Imapus, I just want you to know that what I've read in your posts, I agree with like 99% of it.
    But I think you need to let it go. I mean it's over. It's dead. We can't revive it. Need to move on, y'know? Appreciate the games with what they are.

    Maybe I'm lucky I managed to get it out of my system. I'll always miss point & click, I'm sure of that, but as I said, as far as I'm concerned it's dead. I'll mourn it but I'll welcome the new ones anyways. It's not their fault if I don't like them.

    I know what you mean about not replaying ToMI. I can only see myself replaying chapter 4, and I almost bought it for the Wii (I finally managed to get one again), but I didn't want to spent 10 dollars on it without knowing if I'd like the controls any better.
    I'll try playing with a gamepad when I get the DVD.

    As far as I'm concerned, these games are now console ports, so I'll play them with a gamepad. Maybe it will help you if you see them that way too.
  • edited March 2010
    Avistew wrote: »
    Imapus, I just want you to know that what I've read in your posts, I agree with like 99% of it.
    But I think you need to let it go. I mean it's over. It's dead. We can't revive it. Need to move on, y'know? Appreciate the games with what they are.

    Maybe I'm lucky I managed to get it out of my system. I'll always miss point & click, I'm sure of that, but as I said, as far as I'm concerned it's dead. I'll mourn it but I'll welcome the new ones anyways. It's not their fault if I don't like them.

    I know what you mean about not replaying ToMI. I can only see myself replaying chapter 4, and I almost bought it for the Wii (I finally managed to get one again), but I didn't want to spent 10 dollars on it without knowing if I'd like the controls any better.
    I'll try playing with a gamepad when I get the DVD.

    As far as I'm concerned, these games are now console ports, so I'll play them with a gamepad. Maybe it will help you if you see them that way too.

    Thanks, dude.

    Yeah, you're right, it's dead... but like a funeral where the deceased didn't like his wife one bit - or the other way around (the deceased not liking her husband one bit, but also the other way around, the wife not liking the deceased & vice-versa) - and you're a friend of the deceased, you can try & raise some discomfort by poking the now widow constantly.

    "'Twas your nagging what killed him, you know. That & not letting him go out with us."

    It's good fun.

    I shan't be moving on, though. I might try a couple of games & if I like them, I'll buy them, like I always do something I like, no matter what controls they have. But I don't really see that...

    I kind of understood it with Wallace & Gromit, you know? Those games were indeed much more cinematic & logically so, as all we had up until that point were the small episodes & the film.

    Not so with Monkey Island. And much less with Sam & Max, after two successful series by these guys themselves.

    It's a pity. I was kinda hoping they'd be back on track & then they'd partner with Disney & make a couple of Winnie the Pooh games.

    Winnie the Pooh RWAKS!

    Cheers!
  • edited March 2010
    Gameplay > Control scheme
  • edited March 2010
    Am I alone in not seeing a massive difference?

    In Monkey Island I just used the mouse to move in a different way, it still controlled one-handed and still was relaxing and not at all in need of fast movement or response. I never played Wallace and Grommit, perhaps it was worse there, but for Monkey Island it was still a one-handed and relaxing affair.
  • edited March 2010
    Am I alone in not seeing a massive difference?

    In Monkey Island I just used the mouse to move in a different way, it still controlled one-handed and still was relaxing and not at all in need of fast movement or response. I never played Wallace and Grommit, perhaps it was worse there, but for Monkey Island it was still a one-handed and relaxing affair.

    I don't think I went through a single screen with click&drag not bugging in some way (going where I'm not telling it to, not going where I'm telling it to, GB spinning around, GB starting by running in the opposite direction, GB changing where he's facing as soon as I select him, running the opposite way as soon as you change screen making you go back to the previous one, etc, etc.)

    If it worked for you, good, but I'm definitely never using click&drag again. Plus I didn't like GB being surrounded in a huge ring like that, took me out of the story (not that the problems didn't help with that).

    They're giving us enough different options for control that I think it's pointless complaining about just a single one... Just don't use it and use one you prefer instead. But really, since you're asking, it didn't work for me at all.
  • edited March 2010
    I will admit to liking the single mouse point-and-click style.

    Going back, after Season one and two, to play Sam and Max Hit the Road, Secret of Monkey Island, Curse of Monkey Island etc even shows how the early systems were more complicated than what S&M Seasons 1 & 2 had.

    I've also never been able to play very far into Escape from Monkey Island or Grim Fandango because I couldn't get the hang of the keyboard controls (no mouse at all!) and they don't run so well on my reasonably modern computer.

    But when the WASD movement was introduced for Wallace and Gromit, it took me about 10 minutes to get used to it. Left hand on the keyboard (WASD) and right hand on the mouse. It worked perfectly well, was pretty easy to handle, and I've played 9 episodes (W&G and ToMI) without any problems.

    So if S&M has a similar control scheme to ToMI, I'm happy.
  • edited March 2010
    Avistew wrote: »
    It's dead. We can't revive it. Need to move on, y'know?
    noooooooooooooooo. does anyone know CPR? *starts using first aid skills learned on TV* don't leave me! please don't leave me! *tears flow as i scream for help* It isn't dead! it can't be! ... i't .... can't be... *breaks down sobbing* nooo... *kisses point & clicks lips, maybe some poison still hangs on them*


    ... *nothing happens*

    oh well, moving on.
  • edited March 2010
    Pale Man wrote: »
    Gameplay > Control scheme

    Control scheme = Gameplay.

    Not all of it, but definitely a large part.
  • edited March 2010
    No.

    Source: This very thread.
    I still believe that someday they will fix this, even if i'm the only one hoping for. Bavarians just are this way! :O)
  • edited March 2010
    Eh, when they completely remove the mouse (EMI) I will join you guys complaining loudly, but until then I really don't mind having to use the WASD keys aside from the mouse.

    Replaying S&M Season 1 I actually find myself often grabbing to the WASD keys and shift instinctivelly from time to time.
  • edited March 2010
    Replaying S&M Season 1 I actually find myself often grabbing to the WASD keys and shift instinctivelly from time to time.
    Me too. I always thought switching to direct control wasn't worth the trouble, but I think The Devil's Playhouse may yet make me change my mind. Bring on the future!
  • edited March 2010
    Replaying S&M Season 1 I actually find myself often grabbing to the WASD keys and shift instinctivelly from time to time.

    I try everytime to click'n'drag....
    Click'n'drag is life!!!!! It's a great control system, seriously!
    Point'n'click is not as perfect as many of us think...we're used to it, but's not perfect. We got scrolling problems, artistic problems, depth problem, path problems (i expecially hate path problems!)...
    Click'n'drag is just like to gain life, and I played Tomy with only one hand, laid on the sofa!
  • edited March 2010
    Harald B wrote: »
    Me too. I always thought switching to direct control wasn't worth the trouble, but I think The Devil's Playhouse may yet make me change my mind. Bring on the future!

    I third this - it's all too easy to be pissed off about the lack of p&c, but after playing W&G and Tales, it's painfully obvious in the first two Sam and Max seasons that p&c isn't all that perfect. If only I had p&c to click on the floor and WASD/arrows/c&d for the inconvenient cases... :)
    I try everytime to click'n'drag....
    Click'n'drag is life!!!!! It's a great control system, seriously!

    It does require a bit of getting used to, though. In the end, I gave up my sofa for the arrow keys :D
  • edited March 2010
    I try everytime to click'n'drag....
    Click'n'drag is life!!!!! It's a great control system, seriously!
    Point'n'click is not as perfect as many of us think...we're used to it, but's not perfect. We got scrolling problems, artistic problems, depth problem, path problems (i expecially hate path problems!)...
    Click'n'drag is just like to gain life, and I played Tomy with only one hand, laid on the sofa!
    Interesting how different experiences can be. During the TOMI period it felt like a relief everytime i could return to point&click in other games. No bumping into objects, no zigazags, a overall more relaxed feeling and not getting confused by not this well choosen angles.

    Using an altered joypad steering was the better option although investigating a scene or using objects got more complicated this way until you decided to use both hands, one for the joypad and one for the mouse but hey why not making usage of both hands where one was sufficient before, anyway we were born with two. Maybe there are some orthopaedic advantages. :O)

    May i ask what depth problems are? I don't know this chapter in the book of fairytales about what point&click allegedly also can't do yet.
  • edited March 2010
    Adventure games should be playable by one hand!
  • edited March 2010
    Why?
  • edited March 2010
    Zodler wrote: »
    Adventure games should be playable by one hand!

    It will be.
  • edited March 2010
    Zodler wrote: »
    Adventure games should be playable by one hand!
    Exactly, as well as one leg, one eye, one tooth and one *beep*.
  • edited March 2010
    taumel wrote: »
    May i ask what depth problems are? I don't know this chapter in the book of fairytales about what point&click allegedly also can't do yet.

    Well here's the way I see it.

    From my observations, in order to make 3D point and click, you need a strong emphasis on the ground. (Try navigating the previous seasons of Sam and Max by pressing on the walls.) So I went to Chapter 4 of ToMI and took screenshots of the 5 different camera shots used while walking around in the courtroom.

    Here there are (slight spoilers):
    Back of courtroom.
    Closeup on paintings.
    Overlook of courtroom.
    Closeup of bailiff.
    Closeup of judge

    These shots allow the environment to have more life, rather than a single stagnant shot from the middle of the room that perhaps pivots a bit left and right. None of these shots feature the ground. If you tried implementing point and click, you would have to get rid of all the closeup shots and make it so that there was nothing in the foreground cluttering up the ground view. You could argue that we could get rid of all that just for the sake of point and click, but that's just proving that there are graphical restrictions to that sort of control scheme.

    I'm sure I'm missing some points, but I hope that clears some stuff up.
  • edited March 2010
    Giant Tope wrote: »
    Here there are (slight spoilers):
    :eek: You know, I never really noticed that it was already making that much of a difference. I always thought there were just a handful of mostly not-that-important shots across W&G and Tales.
    I am now officially off the fence and in the pro-direct-control camp. Thanks!
  • edited March 2010
    Giant Tope wrote: »
    Well here's the way I see it.

    From my observations, in order to make 3D point and click, you need a strong emphasis on the ground. (Try navigating the previous seasons of Sam and Max by pressing on the walls.) So I went to Chapter 4 of ToMI and took screenshots of the 5 different camera shots used while walking around in the courtroom.

    Here there are (slight spoilers):
    Back of courtroom.
    Closeup on paintings.
    Overlook of courtroom.
    Closeup of bailiff.
    Closeup of judge

    These shots allow the environment to have more life, rather than a single stagnant shot from the middle of the room that perhaps pivots a bit left and right. None of these shots feature the ground. If you tried implementing point and click, you would have to get rid of all the closeup shots and make it so that there was nothing in the foreground cluttering up the ground view. You could argue that we could get rid of all that just for the sake of point and click, but that's just proving that there are graphical restrictions to that sort of control scheme.

    I'm sure I'm missing some points, but I hope that clears some stuff up.

    Generally i think there is a difference between something you interact with like a game and something you consume in a passive way like a movie. Therefore not everything which works fine in a movie also works fine in a game and the other way around. There do exist movie like angles which work fine in a game as well angles where it doesn't and things get more confusing due to switching the angles too much in combination with the steering and orientation.

    As for the screenshots. Once again, no, you don't have to see what you are clicking at if something for example like a chair or a table is covering the scene because you can obtain the information about everything what's below the mouse pointer, so you also get the ground including the location where you clicked on that ground.

    Now if there doesn't exist a ground at all, you still could define invisible areas which help maneuvering the character to the appropriate position. Clicking on the right side for instance gets you out of this angle to the next long shot or something in between which comes on the right side.

    No problems with point&click at all but for such shots it would need somekind of additional information unless you deal with the issue in a more advanced and intelligent way.

    The least i would expect from something like click&drag is that you don't have to press the button all the time. For instance you could initiate the drag behaviour by a click or some gesture and end it the same way. Whilst i like point&click for the relaxed feeling (because i only have to care about where i want to go and not how i go there plus having to execute this on my own) there obviously also is room for improvement for click&drag but it needs to be done, at least in my opinion.

    Beside of this i really don't see what was wrong with the adventures they did before direct control showed up, moreover these scenes still could be enhanced for point&click in terms of more spectacular views but honestly that's not why i am playing adventures games at all. The reasons why i'm playing adventure games since so many years are completely different.

    I'm in for the riddles, the exploration, the story, the music, the atmosphere, the reward of unlocking new scenes and an ongoing story when i solved a riddle. And i want this to happen in a relaxed atmoshpere. If i want some action, then hey, i play a fps. In my book they took something away which was part of the fun in adventure games without replacing it with something euqivalent or better. One big advantage direct control gives you are easier crossplatform releases because you don't have to take care of the possibilities you're used to from computers.
  • edited March 2010
    pluizig wrote: »
    Control scheme = Gameplay.

    Not all of it, but definitely a large part.

    Any game can use practically any control scheme it wants and it will not affect my ability to enjoy the game unless it's excessively violently non-user friendly, like having to type the alphabet to move your character one step. WASD + Mouse is nowhere near being complicated to the point of interfering with the ability to play a game.
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