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Alternate Solution to "Hot Hawks" Puzzle

Hey guys,

I think the "Hot Hawks" puzzle should have at least one additional solution.

*SPOILERS*

This is the birds puzzle which has more gnomes than total bird-power, and you are supposed to leave out one of the birds. Rather than leave out a bird, I chose to have some of the birds carry less than their maximum weight. There is no rule saying that each bird must carry its maximum weight, and I feel that my solution is equally valid. In fact, having a bird carry no gnomes means that it is carrying infinitely less than its max weight.

*END SPOILERS*

Here is a link to my solution (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3348/hothawks.png), which I believe should be added as a possible answer to the puzzle.

What do you guys think?

Koomazaz

Comments

  • edited July 2010
    Didn't it say "Each bird is at maximum capacity"?
  • ZakZak
    edited July 2010
    NotFury wrote: »
    Didn't it say "Each bird is at maximum capacity"?

    Only on the first bird puzzle. This is the third (?) variation of that puzzle, which is optional.
  • edited July 2010
    I did this solution too, I don't understand why the game does not accept it.
  • edited July 2010
    Ditto, it was kind of disappointing :(
  • edited July 2010
    Edit: interesting.
  • edited July 2010
    Well, wouldn't you assume it work under the same rules as it's predecessors? I don't believe this is a valid answer.

    Although... in this puzzle you have to leave out one of the birds... that's not really "Each bird is at maximum capacity" is it...
  • edited July 2010
    elzbenz wrote: »
    Well, wouldn't you assume it work under the same rules as it's predecessors? I don't believe this is a valid answer.

    Although... in this puzzle you have to leave out one of the birds... that's not really "Each bird is at maximum capacity" is it...

    My guess is that they dropped that rule because of the fact that you have to leave out a bird, but may not have thought of the case when all birds are used but not at full capacity.

    I dunno. It would be nice to see this fixed in a future version.
  • edited July 2010
    browen wrote: »
    I did this solution too, I don't understand why the game does not accept it.

    Same. I like how that little bird does nothing though.
    I'd also done another one that wasn't accepted.
  • edited July 2010
    I agree. I submitted a couple of answers like that before finally resorting to a hint and was very annoyed when I found out why my solutions were being rejected.
  • edited July 2010
    Yeah, this one bugged me too. I submitted loads of answers before, like Jota, resorting to the hints and becoming frustrated that my correct solutions weren't being accepted due a missing explanation.
  • edited July 2010
    Same here! Looks like it's a common solution that had been overseen. If there were a rule that the bird can only carry EXACTLY that weight and not less (ie. 2 blue bird feet on a single gnome), the puzzle would have been fine.
  • edited July 2010
    Did same solution, and was quite frustrated that it wasn't accepted (fit all criteria/rules).
  • edited July 2010
    Same here. Makes it impossible to finish the game with a perfect score with skill alone.
  • edited July 2010
    DaVince wrote: »
    Same here! Looks like it's a common solution that had been overseen. If there were a rule that the bird can only carry EXACTLY that weight and not less (ie. 2 blue bird feet on a single gnome), the puzzle would have been fine.
    No it wouldn't, because if you left out the one bird, it wouldn't be carrying exactly its capacity.
  • edited July 2010
    The blue bird was carrying a world of guilt from having to make the other birds do all the work. It was at maximum capacity for that.
  • edited July 2010
    Yeah, once I realized the game had some semantic problems (discussed in depth in many threads) I started looking at the math of the situation and realized what they meant (though I had a major :rolleyes:)
    I wish it would have said (on both puzzles): "the blue bird can carry no more and no less than 1 on each of its legs, the mallard can carry no more and no less than 2 on each of its legs..."

    Would have been much more clear.
  • edited July 2010
    I think you guys are jumping to conclusions that the "maximum capacity" constraint would be put on this puzzle. Weren't there 4 of these puzzles in total, with only the first one requiring the birds to be carrying a full load? Even if it did apply, one bird carrying nothing would fail that requirement.

    It just looks like an oversight to me.
  • edited July 2010
    As I pointed out in the Hot Hawks topic in the Hint forum, I also tried this solution first and was disappointed to have it rejected by the game.

    I hope it wasn't intentional to keep the rules of the puzzles ambiguous (I would consider that a fundamental design flaw for a game like this), and that it is indeed just a simple oversight.
  • edited July 2010
    Forbin wrote: »
    Weren't there 4 of these puzzles in total, with only the first one requiring the birds to be carrying a full load? Even if it did apply, one bird carrying nothing would fail that requirement.
    Actually, out of the 4 3 required it. And the 4th suddenly dropped it without mentioning. Or, actually, it required it, unless the bird was unloaded at all...

    It's pretty bad all around.
  • edited July 2010
    If I remember correctly, one rule also says that the legs of each bird have to be loaded evenly. That's why a single bird carrying 3 or 1 (or any uneven number of) gnomes isn't allowed...

    Edit: Mh, of course the owls are allowed to carry 1.5 gnomes per leg, so fractions seem to be allowed after all.
  • edited July 2010
    I also came up with the OP's solution and had to resort to the hints. Very frustrating. Also, IIRC, puzzle #2 in the birds series requires some of the birds to be at less than maximum capacity.
  • edited July 2010
    Koomazaz, your solution does not work. The owl and the bluebird at the right side do add up to 5 but between the owl and bluebird you have the owl taking 1.5 gnomes and the bluebird taking 1. If the owl and bluebird are each attached to the bag of gnomes the weight of that bag would be distributed evenly between the two birds. If we were both carrying something hanging on two strings there is no way that you could take more than half the load. Given this, the way you have it set up the bluebird would be taking a load of 1.25 gnomes putting it over capacity and the owl would have an uneven weight of 1.25 and 1.5 between legs. This is not a valid solution to the problem.
  • edited July 2010
    fleet wrote: »
    Koomazaz, your solution does not work. The owl and the bluebird at the right side do add up to 5 but between the owl and bluebird you have the owl taking 1.5 gnomes and the bluebird taking 1. If the owl and bluebird are each attached to the bag of gnomes the weight of that bag would be distributed evenly between the two birds. If we were both carrying something hanging on two strings there is no way that you could take more than half the load. Given this, the way you have it set up the bluebird would be taking a load of 1.25 gnomes putting it over capacity and the owl would have an uneven weight of 1.25 and 1.5 between legs. This is not a valid solution to the problem.

    In the actual solution, the owl carried that bag with both legs, and the mallard helps it with one of its legs. If what you said held water then there would be no correct way to carry a five gnome bag, regardless of the combination of birds.
  • edited July 2010
    I see what you're saying alexonfyre. In the solution that is accepted the owl is holding 3 on the one side, or 1.5 per leg, and the duck is holding 2 on the other. The way I was thinking about it, each rope should be carrying the same weight since they are all attached at the same point. Assuming the length and angle of all the ropes was the same then this would be true but I realize now that it is possible for different amounts of force to be carried by each string. The bag would be offset towards the stronger bird rather then hanging evenly between them. Of course, considering that the ropes are pulling at an angle, the birds would have to be able to lift more than the weight of the gnomes since there would be sideways forces that would add to the amount of force needed to lift the gnomes. That is a whole other issue though.

    The alternate solution should work if there is no rule stating that each bird must carry their maximum possible load or none at all. As it is, the rules only say that the load on a bird has to be even between both feet and this solution meets that requirement. It feels wrong to me :P, but technically this alternate solution should be correct given the rules.
  • edited July 2010
    fleet wrote: »
    I see what you're saying alexonfyre. In the solution that is accepted the owl is holding 3 on the one side, or 1.5 per leg, and the duck is holding 2 on the other. The way I was thinking about it, each rope should be carrying the same weight since they are all attached at the same point. Assuming the length and angle of all the ropes was the same then this would be true but I realize now that it is possible for different amounts of force to be carried by each string. The bag would be offset towards the stronger bird rather then hanging evenly between them. Of course, considering that the ropes are pulling at an angle, the birds would have to be able to lift more than the weight of the gnomes since there would be sideways forces that would add to the amount of force needed to lift the gnomes. That is a whole other issue though.

    The alternate solution should work if there is no rule stating that each bird must carry their maximum possible load or none at all. As it is, the rules only say that the load on a bird has to be even between both feet and this solution meets that requirement. It feels wrong to me :P, but technically this alternate solution should be correct given the rules.

    You phrase all of that like a student (not necessarily a bad thing.) Physically speaking, the tension on the ropes is equal to the force of gravity from the gnomes plus the equalizing lift from the birds, ipso facto, you can lift it so long as the total lift is greater than the total force due to gravity, no need to be even. The angles would even themselves out (though for the puzzle rules to hold true, they would have to be all perpendicular to the ground, not to mention the horizontal forces imposed by flight and... let's just leave the physics out of this one.)
  • edited July 2010
    alexonfyre wrote: »
    You phrase all of that like a student (not necessarily a bad thing.) Physically speaking, the tension on the ropes is equal to the force of gravity from the gnomes plus the equalizing lift from the birds, ipso facto, you can lift it so long as the total lift is greater than the total force due to gravity, no need to be even. The angles would even themselves out (though for the puzzle rules to hold true, they would have to be all perpendicular to the ground, not to mention the horizontal forces imposed by flight and... let's just leave the physics out of this one.)

    I locked on to the idea that the weight would have to be distributed evenly between each rope and it took a while to wrap my mind around why that wasn't the case. I agree that we should just leave the physics out of this one :P. We can just assume that all factors were taken into account when determining the load that each bird could carry.

    So, in the absence of a rule stating that each bird must carry a full load or none at all, I would have to agree that this solution is valid. I didn't think of doing it this way and my gut reaction when first seeing it was that it broke the rules, but that is not the case. This should be added as a correct answer or the rules should be adjusted to make this solution incorrect if it wasn't intended to work this way.
  • edited July 2010
    I got that puzzle right on first try. When puzzle started it was quite fast obvious that loading birds from left to right with bags from left to right. Puzzle would be solved.
  • edited July 2010
    Clord wrote: »
    I got that puzzle right on first try. When puzzle started it was quite fast obvious that loading birds from left to right with bags from left to right. Puzzle would be solved.

    Then you were lucky. If you read this thread, you will see that the issue we're having with this puzzle is that it isn't clear from reading the rules why leaving one bird out is a better solution than having two birds carry less than their maximum load.
  • edited July 2010
    I found exactly the same
  • edited July 2010
    Yup, had 3 or 4 false replies because I figured all birds HAD to be used, as before...
  • edited July 2010
    Really, it should have been phrased as "All birds used carry maximum capacity." But then, that really gives it away, doesn't it?
  • edited July 2010
    Kgummy wrote: »
    Really, it should have been phrased as "All birds used carry maximum capacity." But then, that really gives it away, doesn't it?

    Knowing the solution, little phrases like that seem obvious, but a fresh pair of eyes would likely overlook such a detail.

    I would phrase it thus:
    "No bird will take off without being at maximum capacity.
    What must X character[forgot his name] do to make sure all gnomes are delivered?"
  • edited March 2011
    Actually the rules for the puzzle state "every bird shown carrying something is is carrying its maximum" which means that one bird cannot be carrying anything, as there are not enough gnomes.
    I still stuffed this up because I didn't read properly, but the instructions are perfectly clear.
  • edited March 2011
    That solution is incorrect. The weight has to be evenly spread across two legs. You got the bird carrying two gnomes on one leg and one on the other.
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