Iyrsiiea wrote: »
Wow. Ben was only mentioned a couple times and only three people put him as their 'most hated' character. Which makes me all kinds of happy, seeing as I like Ben.
OT: At certain times I might have hated one character or another, even Ben when he left Clem, but at the end of season I couldn't find it in me to truly hate any of them. They all had their flaws and virtues.
double_u wrote: »
Wow, great analysis Jaded X Gamer. Your post totally put into words the reasons I began suspecting Lilly as really only out for her father.
Jaded X Gamer wrote: »
in ben's case i could never really stay angry at him because i basically viewed him as another kid, same as duck and clem. Yeah he's a teenager, but in most ways you're still just a kid at that age. Couple that with the fact he's a band geek and i wouldn't be surprised if he lived at least a semi-sheltered life before the shit hit the fan.
It's most obvious when chuck is around. He says there are three adults looking out for three kids. If you pick silence as a response chuck goes on to tell ben how hard it must be for him being just a boy an all (which ben meekly denies). Ben also complains about not getting to work on a "super cool train" and there's that scene of him eating the candy chuck gave him.
he may be tall but in the grand scheme of things he's just a boy. He rarely even swears (and when he does it's usually a big deal). And he's alone in a group of people who probably don't care about him (except clem and possibly lee if the player likes him).
I always looked at him as another child who needed protection like clementine. When he and clementine got cornered in episode 4 i saw them both as panicking kids in desperate need of help. In fact ben's deal with the bandits, the one that causes so much trouble, really isn't that different from clementine's own dealings with a devil (which also causes a lot of trouble).
Both clementine and ben go behind the group's back to talk to someone outside the group (stranger/bandits) because they say they have their loved ones (clem's parents/ben's classmate) and because they naively believe them (clem runs off with the stranger after lee says they can't look for her parents/ben starts slipping the bandits meds) they end up putting the whole group in danger with their actions (having to navigate a swarmed savannah/bandits attack).
Although ben is still a pretty a colossal fuck up. I mean he unbars an obviously blocked door, as opposed to clementine who helps you bar a door that's about to break. Still, clem has lee to look out for her, ben's really got nobody. Some kind of fatherly figure probably would have done ben a lot of good.
When i was teaching clementine how to shoot i was wishing i'd could actually bring ben in next and give him some basic survival pointers. I actually suspected kenny may have been willing to fill that role after ben finally told him off, you know, if it weren't for that stupid balcony.
Scaeva wrote: »
He's just an asshole with no redeeming qualities.
Lilly I view as being a tragic character. She isn't a bad person, she just became completely unhinged by Larry's death. I was angry when she killed Carley, and she got left on the side of the road, but I never hated the character.
Scaeva wrote: »
Ben is also indirectly responsible for the death of Chuck, who gets killed rescuing Clem after Ben abandoned her.
A good leader doesn't shoot someone based on paranoid delusions, particularly when that someone also happens to be one of the group's most loyal and combat-effective members.
Lilly murdered a completely innocent person in cold blood, and further endangered the group both by robbing it one of its best fighters (Carley) and by guaranteeing Lilly's own exile from it. A good leader would know there would be no coming back from murdering Carley, and that it would fracture the group. A good leader would also know that the best time to deal with the traitor situation, was after everyone had some rest and a chance to clear their heads. It was a decision that had to be made with logic, not emotion.
I'm not someone who hates Lilly. I think she is a sad, tragic character...I'd love to see her return in the sequel and somehow redeem herself. But as a leader, she is completely inept, particularly after Larry's death. By act three Lilly was uninhinged, and not capable of leading anything.
Kaserkin wrote: »
Carley has a leader? No way, she should learn to me more diplomatic. Calling a paranoid and armed girl "bitch" ain't a good plan.
LauriNicole wrote: »
Hmm, Carley as a leader? I don't like that idea much, even as a Carley fan (for the most part). I think she's too caring to handle a lot of the decisions a leader would have to make. She'd be a great second in command, but I think she'd lead the group to their demise because she wanted to help someone and not realize how much of a danger she might be putting themselves in.
AwkwardlyNERD wrote: »
I never liked Carley or Duck too much.
I preferred Doug and Shawn. I would have liked to have been able to save Doug and Shawn without them dying anyway.
Riadon wrote: »
Travis and Irene
Moggyoxys wrote: »
I understand Travis, but I'm curious why Irene.
Riadon wrote: »
She's a nutjob with cheesy dialog.
Koi wrote: »
Also, the lottery is a terrible way to determine who gets to eat. If it was really impossible to divide the food evenly every day and only four people would eat daily, then why didn't they simply make up a schedule and take turns? That would ensure there was no favoritism going on, reduce the number of arguments and skepticism within the group and everyone would have the same chance to eat. Why would you even leave something like that to chance? It's entirely possible for someone to just have horrid luck and not eat for days because of this, not to mention extremely easy to rig, as I'm assuming she's not holding a lottery drawing show and pulling names out of a hat for everyone to see when she distributes rations.
Jaded X Gamer wrote: »
And she fucking complains about how hard it is! You're letting chance decides who eats but then you go whine about what a hard job you got? Fuck you Lilly. Maybe people hate you because you suck at your job. I didn't even think about her rigging a lottery. If you tell Mark that Larry thinks you're dangerous, he says he wouldn't be surprised if Lilly was skimming food to give to Larry. (And he would know, the man is a huge gossip.) Maybe the lottery was how she was doing it.
My experience with Lilly was the opposite of yours. On my first playthrough I was pretty sympathetic towards her, even though I didn't always agree with her. Kenny's reaction to me not helping him kill Larry really put me off him for a while. I (just barely) let her back in the R.V. after what she did, reasoning Lee got a second chance, maybe she deserved one. And in the ends she steals the R.V. and strands six people to die. (Like she knew or cared if the train worked.) Not even looking the least bit sorry as she did so.
On subsequent playthroughs I've just found myself hating her more and more and at this point I'd say she's the character I hate most (barring outright villains like the St. Johns). Even though I said I pitied her in my last post in this thread, playing the game again has mostly eroded that and I really just think she was a shitty person at heart. Yeah her father is a useless asshole and his shitty parenting is probably responsible for a lot of Lilly's problems, but she's a fucking grown woman and she keeps insisting she's the damn leader. Well fucking lead already!
Being leader means taking responsibility, as in something goes wrong you're responsible. Lilly never takes responsibility for anything. From her father treating everyone like shit ("It's just his way!"), to running out of food ("Suddenly I'm a god damn nazi!"), to having no fucking plans on how to deal with bandits or dwindling supplies ("I just want a week where I don't have to deal with this!") Step up or step aside. It really shows she was just a paper pusher at the Airforce, she governs like an incompetent bureaucrat.
She's not even sorry for shooting Carley or Doug. Either Carley wasn't trustworthy (She was!) or it wasn't supposed to be Doug (Sorry he interrupted your surprise execution!) Either way she doesn’t really care. She only regrets it because it caused the whole group to turn on her, which she of course complains about ("I'm tied up like animal!") and then strands everyone because she knows they won't help her anymore.
Carley was right to called her a scared little girl. If anything she was being too nice, I’d call Lilly a dirty coward. She wants to be in charge so she can justify sending people out to do the dangerous work while she sits around somewhere safe. It’s probably why she’s so against leaving the Motor Inn or the Pharmacy initially, she might actually have to put herself at risk. Also probably why Ben is on watch in Episode 3, there’s actually people shooting back now. The only real time she attacks anyone is when their back is turned or she’s far enough away to not suffer a counter attack.
Maybe if she had any backbone she could have worked up the nerve to tell her asshole father to sit down and shut up in the meat locker before he gave himself another heart attack, like he had already did once before. Instead she just keeps meekly pleading with him in her most pathetic voice. Gotta love the one time she doesn’t switch to mega bitch mode is the one time it may have actually helped.
Anyways, enough about Lilly. I actually did feel sorry for the Stranger. Maybe because I was pretty much certain he was coming back for his station wagon. I mean the keys are in the ignition and the lights are still on, which means it couldn’t have been there for more than one night since that would run the batteries down. And the gas gauge is empty, they were out looking for gas probably.
He reminded me a lot of Jolene (whom I also felt bad for). Someone who was probably just a regular person before everything went bad and lost their fucking mind when all their loved ones died since it left them completely alone. I felt it really demonstrated just what such a horrible world would do to regular people, and how desperate it would make them.
You’re right about the Stranger being a hypocrite though. His whole rant against Lee is is just him projecting his own failures onto Lee. Trying to rationalize his family’s deaths as someone else’s fault since he won’t accept responsibility for it, as if Lee and his group would be the only people who would ever wrong him. Grasping at straws to try and make Lee unsuitable so he can feel justified into lying to Clementine and kidnapping her.
And yet I still felt incredibly sorry for him. Maybe because I’m a bleeding heart pansy so I keep sympathizing with him during the conversation and by the end he didn’t even sound mad anymore. He actually seemed to feel bad for Lee for a moment when I told him I was bitten. Then he started talking to his bowling bag and it was kinda obvious he was too far gone to help.
When he died I looked at his corpse for a short moment and whispered “I’m sorry”. Sorry we didn’t wait for him to come back to his car, maybe invite his family to come back to Motor Inn. Sorry he was just another person whom I couldn’t save. Sorry that we had to kill him since I couldn’t convince him to let go of his own bitter revenge. If felt tragic just because if one little thing had gone differently, he could have been another family living with our group, just trying to survive.
As for Ben, I’m pretty much on the same page as you. Could never really be angry with. He’s well meaning fuck-up, which I felt was probably a realistic depiction of a teenage band geek trapped in zombie apocalypse. Scared and clueless to what he should do. Like I said, he really needed a parental figure to guide him. Clementine had Lee to protect her and teach, Ben was pretty much left to fend for himself.