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Plot Twist... Carver not the enemy?

posted by jillValentine333 on - Viewed by 4.2K users

what if Carver's really not the enemy? If he was he wouldn't even try to reason with Clem or the group. He would just kill them all on site. I think he just wants a group of survivors. He's like Roman who gives the group different jobs to do. Carver will try to reason with everyone, but Kenny will screw things up like he did with Larry. He will get Alvin or Sarita killed by trying to get revenge on Carver for killing Walter. It's Kenny's fault Walter died. If Kenny wouldn't had shot at Carver or Johnny Walter would still be alive.

Now what if the real enemy is Nate and he has his own group now? Nate isn't really a lone wolf because being alone makes him crazy. He would rather make friends to survive and do crazy things like steal people's stuff and talk crazy.

I know this may sound crazy but what if Luke's the real enemy? He seems much stranger than on episode 1. He thinks killing zombies is fun, I get a Psychological vibe form him. The way he reacts when he meets Kenny. He said he's good with women and children. He seems to know more about Carver than anyone else. Luke's plan seems to get everyone killed like Carver said. Could Luke be apart of the group that attacked Christa, and went to look for her since Clem told Luke and everyone about her? I doubt Kenny killed Luke because Kenny wouldn't kill someone unless their a walker or bitten. Yes Kenny got jealous, but doesn't mean he killed him.

Last thing to ask... Could Kenny be an antagonist in season 2? Kenny seems to be getting out of control; especially when he met Luke and accidentally called Clem Duck. Also when Walter died. Kenny is mentally scared which is causing him to go crazy. Him trying to get revenge on Carver will get himself and everyone killed except Clem. Carver see's Clem as trusting, tough, and different then the cabin group so he will try to reason with her....

  • Carver is not a good man, but I think his bad actions aim are to protect his community. I repeat: he's not a good man, but you know, maybe he had to bear something terrible in this 2 (?) years of apocalypse. I mean, there are good men and women like Lee, Luke (it seems) or Clementine and Sarita (it seems), but what if Carver is a "new" Kenny? I mean, we love kenny because we lived with him the entire season 1, but he also had some strange behaviours, not really "heroic".

    I don't know, I think that the enemy is another one. Carver, in my opinion,will try to protect his community. And with "his community" I mean "his big family", like he said in the trailer of episode 3.

    I mean, we don't really know why Luke's group escaped from him. They say he's a bad guy and we heard all the bad things about him, maybe he has a positive attitude. Maybe Luke's just kind of a rebel, with great charisma

  • I suspect that the real troublemakers are going to be Carlos and Luke... When Luke says something like "Carlos is a good man and he's not going to do any crazy stuff, because he's good, isn't he?" after Sarah said "Are you gonna hurt somebody else?".

    I don't remember the exact words, but on that part I thought "This two are hiding some bad stuff".

    I think Carver is just a man who likes power and doing things at his own way. If you are against him, then he kills you, just like that.
    Nate was psychologically wrong, that's for sure, and he's a cold blood killer, but he's different from Carver. I think Nate doesn't care if you're with or against him, he just judges you and, if you like him, he lets you be at his side. But he did and is going to do some crazy stuff.

    But Carlos and Luke... Those two are a mystery to me.

    • This. THEY said to us that Carver is evil. Well, he's not a genuine hero like Lee, but... We heard only Luke's opinion. You know, Rebecca wanted to escape because of the child maybe and she convinced her husband, Alvin. Luke and Carlos are the "rebels", Sarah obviously followed her father. And Nick was convinced by Luke, we all have to remember that Luke has leadership in his veins.

  • Played it last night. And from what I understand, Carver only wants Rebecca because of the baby, right? Obviously there's history between both groups because we know there is, but nothing else than the baby is mentioned. Other than that, Carver doesn't scare me. He's kinda great character I definitely want to see more of.

    Kenny is not and will not be an antagonist, don't worry. That's like telltale urinating in our mouths. Bad taste.

    Got goosebumps when I realised that man in the middle was Kenny. That was such a well deserved happy moment for Clementine. And sure. Kenny said some weird things at the dinnertable but that doesn't matter. Who doesn't change in a world like that. I will stay with Kenny as long as I can.

  • yea just hope they don't do what they did to omid to kenny. Reunite with a character then kill them off...

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    UndeadEuan BANNED

    From what we can see, Carver is incredibly reasonable. He just wants Rebecca, and he did an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth with Walter/Alvin.

    We haven't had the full story.

    • Wouldn't it be "tooth for a tooth"?

      Also, a plot twist would be awesome. And maybe Pizza is Carver's group and Ice Cream is Luke's group.

    • Dafuq? Carver is reasonable???

      First. What about Carlos?

      Second. While an eye for an eye may have worked regarding Alvin, Walter was completely innocent.

      You have a horrific sense of reason.

      • I don't fully agree with that. While Carver did react very drastically. I doubt he would have killed Walter, if Kenny hadn't shot Jonny. Carver seems to be a bad guy, but he is not crazy. He follows his own logic and reasoning. It's his moral standards that are questionable.

        • I agree he wouldn't have shot Walter had Kenny not shot Johnny. But murdering an innocent person for the mistakes of another is not an eye for an eye and is far, far from reasonable. Carver seems to be fairly crazy, if he wasn't he wouldn't follow the group to find what may be his child. That doesn't say he has lost touch with reality, but he is most definitely crazy to an extent.

          You can't twist logic and reason to fit a changing atmosphere. If that's the case then you can't say his moral standards are questionable because 'he follows his own moral standards.' Obviously he follows his own logic and reasoning but by our predisposed disposition of what we consider logic and reason is what we base our ideas of another's logic and reasoning on. What you're saying is just because he doesn't see it as bad/unreasonable then we can't see it as bad/unreasonable.

          • No, you are the one confusing morals with logic. One can be a bad and a reasonable person. Carver follows the group, because he is convinced that it is his baby. So he has a very personal reason to track down the cabin group. He is not following them, just because he can. When Kenny sniped at them, Carver evaluated the situation and did what seemed to be the most beneficial action for his agenda (which is getting Rebecca back to his camp). You can call Carver ruthless or cruel etc. I'm not arguing against that. What I'm arguing against is calling him unreasonable.

            Carver is a very calculating character and he is not that hard to predict. He is not a madman. He is intelligent, he can be very manipulative, he has well equiped followers, who seem to be loyal to his cause and he is not afraid to use violence if it furthers his agenda. So he is very powerful person, but I already know what his weakspot is going to be. And the reason (no pun intended) why I know this, is once you understand what his morals are, you can see a clear pattern in his logics and reasoning.

            • You can be bad and reasonable. But he isn't reasonable. The antagonist usually isn't and this is no exclusion. Unreasonable is the absence of reason. He is cunning, and intellectual, and finds the best way to accomplish his goals but he is not reasonable.

              I'll not argue the last part of your post. They are correct inferences of plausible theories. I'm not sur anyone truly understands his weak spot yet, after all we haven't seen that much of him and are not sure of his motives beyond that of returning 'his' son/daughter to him. But I can see how a plausible theory can be established from your ideas.

  • If Carver was even remotely as good or fair as people keep trying to paint him as, he would've taken steps not to drag others into his business with Luke and company. He could've given Clem and the ski lodge crew the opportunity to walk away and let him handle his business. But no, he rounds everyone up and suddenly they're all a part of his "family". There may be some gray areas with his character but I don't buy for one minute that he's not really an enemy.

    As for Luke, his only crime seems to be involving others in his big ideas while not necessarily having enough experience to see them through properly. The others in the group clearly have their skeletons but that does not automatically absolve Carver of his present actions as far as I'm concerned. I don't get the sugarcoating of his character, tbh. He already makes a great villain.

    • Yeah, it's going to take alot to convince me that someone who hunts down people who wanted to leave his community, takes hostages, tortures hostages, murders hostages and drags them all back in chains is anything but a villain. An interesting, charismatic villain, sure. But he's going to have to work overtime and then some to convince me to side with him in any way.

      Blow my mind, telltale. :)

      • This, pretty much. He does villainous things, therefore, he is a villain. Sometimes 1 + 1 does actually equal 2.

        He is clearly a narcissist who simply will not accept the notion that anybody is allowed to have any free will beyond what he grants them. He probably perceives his actions as generous--a fair trade for whatever protection and order he is willing to provide--but he accepts only one version of order: his own.

        His actions are very calculated to leave the impression of fairness, but he is essentially exploiting a world full of people suffering from collective PTSD. Pure manipulator, and a very dangerous guy. Whatever Luke and his group did, I'd want to be free from Carver's clutches, as well, so I'm with them.

  • Man, I don't get where people are getting these crazy theories about Nate being some ring leader for an opposing group. Yeah, the guy is charismatic and manipulative in his own way, but he's the type who if he couldn't fit you in his truck, he wouldn't give two shits whether you existed or not. Nate was lacking in morals, like many are, but the last time we saw him he was willing to let Russell just walk away. Whereas Carver chases people for at least a week to torture and drag them back. I have this feeling that IF the 400 Days main characters return, they'll use them to try to sway people into siding with Carver, but there remains no doubt in my mind that Carver is the villain. Carver came in with automatic weapons and lined everyone up on their knees like an execution squad. What Kenny did was in defense of the group, however poorly executed, while Carver was killing a man who had already surrendered in retribution.

  • Possibly, I'm suspicious of both Carver and the cabin group, whether or not one of them may be 'evil' there is definitely more than meets the eye to the both of them. I guess we'll find out more soon. You can call Carver a good guy all you want, but holding a hostage situation and tracking down a married pregnant lady who wants nothing to do with him ((and potentially killing her husband if you make the wrong decisions)) is not something a good guy would do. He might have a positive side that we haven't seen, but that doesn't excuse the bad.
    The cabin group could be worse, but Carver is dark-grey if anything. We just don't have enough information on either of them yet to say for sure.

    Luke makes me suspicious as well, but that's more due to the lack of information we have on him and him disappearing after Carver held the group hostage. He seems like an OK guy and I don't see anything wrong with him (yet) personality-wise. I feel like the cabin group is deliberately holding back info on Carver from Clementine, the way that they avoid questions about him seems to imply it. I guess it could be that they simply don't wanna talk about it, but Clem's with them now, so they shouldn't be keeping things from her. Especially when it comes to a person that was persistently tracking them.

    Also, Nate isn't the type of guy to lead a group. He's not exactly a lone-wolf type, but I think he's too chaotic for organized groups and would rather be on his own or with a buddy.
    I don't think Kenny will be an antagonist, he's definitely gone a bit unhinged after the whole Savannah ordeal, but I don't think he'll go insane. He might make some morally ambiguous decisions later on, but that doesn't necessarily make him an antagonist. If I had to choose between Kenny, the cabin group, and Carver's group, I'd go with Kenny and Sarita. I just don't know enough about the cabin group for me to feel safe in putting Clem's trust in them, and Carver is a no-go.

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    Lori-Grimes BANNED

    I'm honestly not sure where Carver stands at this point.

  • As far as I know .Michael Madsen stated that William isn't bad he does things that justify everything around him.And cmon he is not Philip or Negan,a mentally breakdown sociopath or a deranged sociopath.

    • Wasn't Micheal just stating his personal opinions on Carver though? I watched the interview and I didn't really think he was giving out actual canon information on the character. And still, I think a lot of VAs try to cast the characters they voice in a positive light.

      I do agree with you though, I hope he doesn't end up like the Governor. I've had enough of depraved, evil-for-the-sake-of-evil despots, thank you very much. I doubt Telltale will go that direction with Carver's character though, they're pretty good with character development.

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