• it's just a matter of opinion i guess and i think it has something to do with lilly shooting carley and the whole thing about larry being an asshole to lee

  • Kenny and Lilly have both committed horrendous crimes... the one and ONLY reason people like Kenny over Lilly is because Lilly killed someone who was close to them.

    I bet half of them wouldn't bat an eye if it was Ben who got killed.

    Anyway, they are more or less justified in that sense, but Kenny did the exact same thing: He killed Larry based on, arguably, a hunch. Lilly had to live with that and she tried her best to move on.

    • I would care if it had been Ben. And yes, Kenny killed Larry, but if Larry really was dead, then he would probably kill most, if not all of the people in the meatlocker. When Lilly killed Carley/Doug, they were already away from the bandits, and out of danger. They could have found out, who the traitor was, and then taken care of it. Maybe even without killing anyone.

      • Never said you wouldn't, but I'm saying most people wouldn't have reacted so violently, I guarantee you that. Not saying all of you, but people had a more emotional connection with Doug/Carly.

        But the punishment for such a crime is debatable. Kenny wanted to kill Ben when he found out he was the one who did it, which is no better than Lilly wanting to kill Ben/Carly.

        • I fully agree, that Kenny wanting to kill Ben isn't good. But it is a bit better. Like a tiny little, very small bit better. The thing is, that Kenny knew, 100%, that Ben was the traitor. Lilly didn't. Ben was also indirectly cause in Kenny's family's death. Lilly hadn't lost more than anybody else because of Ben. So, I don't think it was right of Kenny to want to kill Ben, but it was a bit more understandable compared to Lilly

        • Well Doug/Carley were fully innocent and Lily didn't even have any proper clues pointing that way, whereas Ben had admitted guilt. Killing Ben would be far more justified and while killing him might be a slight overreaction it'd be understandable.

          I'd say exiling him from the group would have been the right course of action, but as that wasn't an option I had Lee avoid saving him and then tell Clementine it had to be done. She seemed to take it pretty well.

    • What "horrendous" crime did Kenny ever commit? And no, finishing off Larry in the meat locker was not a horrendous crime ;)

      • He left Shawn. Shawn was in danger, and Kenny left him. Granted, Kenny felt guilty and regretted his actions later on, but that doesn't make it any less cowardly of him to do that. I forgave him, but it was still horrible for him to do that, even if it was to protect his son. There was no guarantee that he would be saved with Kenny's help, but Kenny didn't try.

        The woman in the street, Beatrice. Kenny was thinking for the good of the group, but so was Lilly, arguably. Simply because it was smart doesn't make it any less immoral or horrendous.

        Kenny stole food from a car when he had no knowledge on whether or not it was really abandoned. It could be the main reason everybody was killed in the end: Had Kenny left it and continued, The Stranger wouldn't have kidnapped Clem or seek revenge.

        • I'll agree with you about stealing from the car, but the other examples were not horrendous acts, and definitely were not crimes. In the Shawn situation he was looking after his own family. He should have tried to help Shawn, but can you really blame him for being more concerned about his own family? As for Beatrice, she was going to die regardless of what they did. She was already bitten and surrounded by walkers. Kenny didn't want to get Lee and himself killed just so she could have a more merciful/painless death.

          You could describe the Shawn/Beatrice examples as cowardly, but that's about it.

          • Kenny didn't want to get Lee and himself killed just so she could have a more merciful/painless death.

            That wasn't at all what was on Kenny's mind: what was on his mind was using her as bait for supplies, not their safety. That could have been on Lee's mind, but not Kenny's.

            • That completely ties in with not attracting attention and putting themselves in danger. She was also already bitten at that point.

              Kenny: "They don't know we're here. We leave her alive and she draws them all to her, buying us time."

              Its all about survival. Yes it would be a tremendous act of kindness to put the girl out of her misery, but she was going to die either way. Its not like Kenny was wronging her in any way.

              • You aren't putting yourself in her shoes: of course Kenny wronged her. There was no consultation with her on whether or not she wanted to be eaten alive, was there? There was, of course, no way to do that, but does that mean we simply choose her fate for her? Does that give us that right?

                Would you rather be shot in the head or eaten alive, simple question. I'm pretty sure you would choose the less painful option in this case. How, then, can you justify choosing for her so you could get a few more supplies?

                Kenny's actions were justified, but so was Lilly's. Lilly still did what she though was right, same as Kenny.

                • It doesn't matter whether they had a right to choose her fate or not, they didn't have a choice. No matter what they did in that situation, they had a say in her fate. Whether she gets eaten alive or shot in the head is up to them. There were no other alternatives. So no, Kenny was not wronging her by abstaining from the situation and indirectly deciding her fate. I'm sure the girl would rather not get eaten alive, but she was already doomed. Why would Kenny risk getting themselves killed over someone who is already as good as dead? It clearly wasn't just about the supplies. Hell, Kenny and Lee barely make it out alive after Lee drew the walkers' attention by shooting the girl.

                  As for your question, I would rather get eaten alive if it meant the safety of others. I wouldn't have people put themselves in grave danger just so I could have a more ideal death.

                  And no, Lilly's actions are not justified. How can you justify shooting someone in the face just because they were being mean to you? You can't. Even in the other scenario where she tries to kill Ben, it's still not justified. It was still a huge overreaction, and she was in no place to pass the judgement of death upon a member of the group like that. Her actions are not even comparable to Kenny's.

                  • It's the right thing to do. You have two choices in that situation: do what is right but risky or what is immoral but beneficial?

                    I'd rather die than know that I have used a woman as bait; I couldn't live with that on me knowing that I could have at least kept her from avoidable pain.

                    • It wasn't just about using her as bait. They had to ensure their own safety. How is the action immoral when she was going to die seconds later either way? What if Kenny had been killed by walkers after drawing their attention by unnecessarily shooting the girl? You then would have directly caused someone else to die that did not need to. Obviously neither Lee or Kenny got killed after shooting the girl, but it was very close. You're saying its the right thing to do solely because the girl doesn't have to go through pain, but its more complicated than that. Like I said above, I would rather die a painful death than have someone pointlessly get themselves hurt or killed by granting me a painless one. It was very unfortunate what happened to the girl, but putting themselves in grave danger just so she can have an ideal death is not the right decision.

                      Its really easy to say you would shoot the girl when talking about the situation in the game. In reality though, that decision would be 100x harder. I put the girl out of her misery in the game, in real life I do not think I would take that shot (for reasons I have already said).

                      p.s. Sorry if I edited my previous post after your latest reply, I have a bad habit of adding and adding to my original post.

  • If you side with Kenny throughout the entire game, he'll be your best friend to the end. Granted, refusing to participate in a rescue mission for a little girl because you didn't help him demolish an old guy in front of his daughter is real douche material, but it's still determinant.

    But no matter what you do, Lily will expose your secret to the entire group in episode 3, apparently because she just wanted to drag someone else down to hell with her.

    • Hell, wouldn't you do the same in her shoes? You do something you think is justified, yet is punished for it.

      She's not justified, but she thought she was.

      • Hell, wouldn't you do the same in her shoes?

        Uh...no, not really.

        • Well, she is the last one who knows your secret, She's about to be kicked out/taken aboard, so she feels the need to say one last thing before she leaves. Lee would have never share his secret otherwise (at least in the Doug scenario). The group has the right to know either way.

          • Kind of went different for me.

            Lilly: I'm a murderer!?! You've had Lee with you this whole time!

            Kenny: I don't care what he did before!

            Lilly: You know?

            Kenny: Yeah, he told me- and I don't give a shit.

  • Kenny-Lilly debates all over the place.

    • Kenny was only antagonistic to the player depending upon their choices, whereas Lilly was scripted to be antagonistic in the grand scheme of the narrative.

    • Lee, our avatar, had far more interaction with Kenny than Lilly, deadening Kenny's misdeeds to an extent; moreover, they were given room to be excused, generally.

    • Lilly murdered a highly likable character in the heat of the moment, either scenario, accidental or not. Kenny killed Larry, a very divisive character, out of fear, the antecedent to his do-or-die action.

    • Cynically speaking, Lilly lacks memetic facial hair for people to warm up to.

  • Like Robert Morgan said above, even though Kenny can be a really selfish asshole, if you have his back (A LOT) he'll have yours. Lilly throws you under the bus no matter what you've done for her. But I think it's also that the last time we see Lilly, she's either just killed a fellow group member and close friend, or stolen the group's only transportation AFTER killing said group member earlier. Even though Kenny is still an ass, the last time we saw him in Season 1 he nearly lost his life either mercy killing Ben or saving Christa. Sure, he didn't actually die, but those were still heroic actions. Lilly never had the chance to make up for the bad things she did to the group, while Kenny did. At least, that's why I think more people like Kenny than Lilly at the moment.

  • even before episode 3, there's problems. Lilly had no plan beyond "let's sit and wait for someone to save us, or this whole thing to blow over." kenny had a plan, sure it wasn't very original, but it was proactive. lilly had her points, but after the farm, losing her dad, and then supplies going missing, she started to really the feel the pressure. not even including larry's death, while her reasons were sound, following her advice would have and/or did end badly each time, and i think it got to her. as a leader, being wrong that many times starts messing with ya. that's what i didn't like about her, though i did still like her, even after she jacked the RV. she wasnt leader material, but she did what she could.

    kenny's plan had a bunch of flaws, which you start to see as soon as you leave the motel in episode 3. there was no step 2. he says the RV wouldn't get more than another 30 miles or somethin when lilly takes it, and i doubt that would have changed just because he was driving it. they would have been stranded, with no food, water, and little supplies if they hadn't found the train and chuck. kenny always acted yet rarely thought about other people when he acted, until it was too late. the only time he showed good insight was at the barn in episode 2, and then he blows it when you say what you found and he treats you like you're joking.. every other time, unless you kept him happy, he'd fight you every step of the way, even on things that were the right thing to do. aside from his determinant base attitude at times, he felt more like a normal person, which made him likable, but it was those same traits that some found endearing that made others dislike him. i liked kenny as well, but... i think what lee said to clem about ben could apply here, "i'm not leaving you with him, i'm leaving him with you." kenny means well, but he needs a person he respects to look out for him, to try and keep him in line.

    just my thoughts.

    • I completely agree with all of this!! :)

    • I never got a feeling of respect from Kenny, with Lilly, you can disagree with her and she will disagree and explain her point of view. She made it feel like your opinion mattered.

      With Kenny, your opinion holds no weight unless you agree with him. He will tell you you're outright wrong when you express your opinion. No other situation shows this better than the meat locker scene. Both you and Lilly say hes going to live, that you cant kill a living man, he ignores you because he doesnt trust or respect you and so takes actions into his own hands.

      • it's not respect in a traditional sense. think more like a rivalry. yes, if you keep siding with him, he's your best bud, but even if you constantly disagree with him, you could be the biggest ass possible to him, and he'll still include you in his plans. he may not help when you initially ask to help find clem unless you appeal to the family man in him, but even if he doesn't go, he's still willing to wait for you. that is what i view as respect. kenny can be a complicated guy.

        in the meat locker, he does what he feels is right, whether or not anyone else agrees. he may have been wrong, he may not have been, but he acted. sure, there could have been other options, but he felt threatened and acted for the good of the group, not because he hated larry or lilly, but because if larry did die, he might have killed everyone else. season 1 was full of good intentions and wrong choices.

        • Again, I kept disagreeing with him, so more and more he would just show he only traveled with me because he believed it was safer. He says it himself in Macon if you tell him we should split up "I swear Id go on my own if I didnt think it was suicide". From then on, I only felt he was with me because it was for his benefit (and beforehand actually, but that statement further cemented it).

          In the meat locker, he might have done what he felt is right, but he still CLEARLY doesnt trust Lee's opinion enough to follow his lead. If Lee says Larry will live, then Kenny should listen. For Kenny though, its a one way conversation, he expects you to listen to him, not vice versa.

          • snicker i guess he proved himself wrong showing up in season 2 then, didn't he?

            that's what makes it a rivalry. how could you feel safe around a person that you hated, constantly disagreed with you, and that had either told you he was a murderer or that somebody said he was, and then keep doing stuff together? despite all of it, he still had a degree of trust/respect for Lee. it may not have been enough to actually change his mind, but there was still something there.

  • There are a lot of reasons yo dislike Lilly (and Kenny) but the main reason boils down to the fact that Lilly killed someone people liked.

  • People like Kenny better than Lilly for the same reasons people like Jesus Christ more than Adolf Hitler: Superior facial hair and a cleaner soul.

    In all seriousness though Lilly is filth and people who get upset over her being hated and Kenny not usually throw out weirdly unverified statements like "Kenny is selfish" or "Lilly cares more about the group" which is like RT/Vladimir Putin propaganda levels of disingenuous.

    • thats funny pls entertain me some more.. on a side not, im not saying lilly doesnt have character flaws, she really does, and thats part of the reason why i like her. im not saying i dont like kenny, because i like him too?? lilly tried to look out what was best for the group, and kenny more so only wanted what was the best for his family. which is completely understandable!! lilly did have moments where she was selfish as well, and im not going to deny her flaws. it just bugs me when a ton of people love kenny, but shove aside every shitty thing he did.

      • Lilly's plan for the group was to freeze to death as their supplies dwindle and they suffer continuous bandit attacks, attacks which would assuredly get worse as inclement weather would drive them out of the forests to seek shelter.

        The complaints about Kenny usually revolve around or stem from the fact that he's "rude" or was mean to Lee when Lee did stupid, sentimental, emotion based things that actually DID threaten the group. Either that or they enter into weird equivalency arguments to say that Kenny's just as bad as Lilly, which is laughable, or use omniscient knowledge or 20/20 hindsight to say that Kenny should have tried something that wouldn't occur to the group in the first place.

        There is no actual content to much of their arguments.

        • Yeah that is true. Neither of the plans were really a good idea, because it's just not that smart to pack up and leave, trying to find a new shelter for a whole group. It's also not good to stay and freeze to death. Which is why I had a really hard time trying to side on that argument. You do have a good point. ..

  • Day 1, Kenny and his family were arguably nice to both Lee and Clementine. Lilly and her dad wanted to kick the whole lot of them back on to the streets with the walkers. Did I mention Larry tried to leave Lee for the dead and she didn't even react? So....

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