"Stupid Girls and Their Preposterous Schemes" my theory half of it was right :)

Last night I replayed all the episodes so far. I did this because i've had a suspicion of a certain hostess named Vivian. I believe i've found some decent evidence to prove that Vivian is the killer.
Also, Thank you Jenny_Pitcher for your pieces of evidence that made me replay the episode! Also, thank you Akwell for those pictures I used to explain what I meant.

So there have been little bits of evidence each episode that have set off some suspicions for me. Let's start with the tarot cards in Episode 1 and 2. When one clicks on them they are presented with the Strength, Tower, and Ten of Swords cards all of which are in the upright position.

Strength: Can be interpreted as Compassion, Control, Self Control
Tower: Can be interpreted as A Danger, Catasrophe, or Hard times ahead.
Ten of Swords: Betrayal, Back Stabbed, Endings
Could these indicate that Vivian betrayed her friends by murdering them. Could she have done it to save them from an endless life of prostitution and debt?

Episode 2 tarot cards were the 3 of Swords, the Moon, and the Hermit.
3 of Swords: rejection, sadness, loneliness, heartbreak, betrayal, separation and grief
Moon: Mystery, Illusion, fear, anxiety, insecurity
Hermit: While alone the Hermit means self introspective. But when combined with the 3 of Swords + Hermit: it means Being betrayed, hurt and also alone, perhaps because one wants the wounds to heal.
I strongly feel that these cards represent Nersissa and her guilt for knowing who the killer is and not being able to speak on it.

Now onto the clues I found in the episodes.
Episode 1: Crane tells Snow to call Vivian and have her reschedule his "massage" This is the first major piece of evidence. This indicates that Vivian has access to the books, and this also means that she knows where the girls will be pretty much 24/7, considering how invasive the Pudding and Pie is with their workers lives. That being said, Vivian would have known Crane was a regular and that Room 207 was his usual room. What better way to frame an individual then to commit a murder in his own exclusive room.

Episode 2. Vivian's intro first shows her smoking a cigarette. While not much, later in the episode it makes sense.
http://i.imgur.com/H0vzgeO.png

Vivian greets Bigby and proceeds to give the Pudding and Pie's motto "Welcome to the Pudding and Pie! Where we cater to the "diverse tastes" of the Fable community."

During that one can warn her that she may be in danger. She then smirks, unfazed and responds

"Oh Sweetie, we all are in danger."
http://i.imgur.com/cN1nXjI.png

After that, One will also discover there is a Huff and Puff cigarette machine in the Pudding and Pie and Vivian seems to be smoking one earlier.
http://i.imgur.com/4CZG6z0.png

We also find out about the black book that shows where and whom the girls are going to be with. Since Crane told Snow to call Vivian to reschedule the prior episode, this means she has access to it. She also would know that Lily would have been in the room 207 at the time of her murder.
The next peculiar piece of evidence is the wine found in Room 207. Bigby found Crane's wine in Room 207. Surely it must have been given to Vivian so she could prep Lily before her meeting with Crane. There is also a Huff and Puff cigarette in the ashtray of the murder scene. Since Crane doesn't smoke and neither does Snow, this means that Lily would not have been allowed to smoke as it would have broken the fantasy Crane had. This means the killer must have left there butt in the ashtray.

Episode 3: The card at Lily's memorial just felt so off kilter.

"Lily. Now you will never die from indifference or lead tedious life. Goodbye sweetheart. Thanks for everything. Vivian."-

Next, the way Vivian seemed to wanted to keep Nerissa on a short leash. She pretty much orders her to come to her side by the tone of her voice. Nerissa's behavior in the scene is also suspect. She seems very nervous. She keeps figeting and looking back when she asks if you found out anything. When one states that Lily was killed there her face indicates that she knew already. Skip to 9:58 in the video to see what i've stated.

The last of the evidence I noticed happened at the end of the episode. When Crane goes to the club with The Ring of Dispel to draw the truth out of Nerissa he says "I know you know what the plan is" "I won't be held accountable for this". Once Crane lets her go Vivian wraps her arms around her to "comfort her" but the look on her ace says otherwise. Next, when Snow and Bigby come to the conclusion that he is only guilty of embezzelment, Vivian is so quick to continue to insist that Crane is the killer. Her face has the look of anger and she is adamant to keep the focus on him. When Bigby and snow escort Crane out of the room, notice the stern look on Vivian's face. As if she needs to disciple Nerissa. My last piece come from Crane himself. When Bigby shoves him he says "Stupid girls and their preposterous schemes" to which Snow replies "What was that?" and he clams up.

Finally in Episode 4 when Nerissa visits Bigby's office, Bigby offers her a Huff N Puff. She declines and says that not too many people smoke those. She then pulls out a pack of her own Cigarettes which are the same brand in the machine that contains the Huff N Puff cigarettes in the Puddin N Pie. Nerissa also states that she no longer has any friends left, but in the prior episode Vivian was portrayed as her "caring friend" outraged by Crane harassing her. Could Nerissa have been implying that Vivian isn't her friend and he should be looking at her? Finally near the end she is among the big bads of the season during Bigby's meeting with the Crooked Man. She starts by sitting behind Georgie initially but then moves directly next to the Crooked Man.

So there is my evidence that I have so far. Could Vivian have a higher ranking in the Crooked Man's crime organization then previously believed? Is she the one how enchants the ribbons for the workers at the Pudding N Pie?

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Comments

  • thank you for posting this! she is definitely involved in this.

  • I like it. I realized Crane mentioned her and she was smoking Cigarette but didn't think about the rest. I still Wonder what fable is she?

  • I'd noticed some of the above, but you put it together nice and succinctly. I think this has a decent shot of being the case.

    I've said in other threads, Vivian is kind of the Butler of this particular murder mystery. She seems one thing at first but all her actions are open to be interpreted in a different way once we know the truth.

  • edited April 2014

    Very nicely observed. With the Tweedles and Bloody Mary running around for the Crooked Man and Crane causing trouble, it's easy to forget that the actual murder victims were two prostitutes from the same environment and that Vivian had perfect access to both and is also the most likely to know how to best take advantage of those silencing spells on the girls' ribbons. And with an utter douche like Georgie with connections to the Crooked Man managing the club itself, nobody is likely to pay any attention to her personally...

    Any ideas as to her motive? Her card at Lily's funeral would imply that she felt she was doing them a favor, setting them free from leading "tedious lives" and "dying from indifference". Perhaps she's a fanatic in Fabletown's class war? I can't think of a better way to draw attention to the government's disinterest in the poor than by framing the universally hated Director of Operations for murdering prostitutes while exposing his genuine perversion at the exact time the local mafia runs out of patience with him and naps him up, theoretically preventing him from ever proving his innocence.

  • edited April 2014

    Don't forget she's a Fable. She must be from a story, but her character card was very elusive regarding details about her past. Chances are her motive, if she's the killer, is also tied up in her background.

  • The only story I can think of that includes a woman named Vivian is actually Pretty Woman. Funnily enough, the story is often regarded as a fairytale and the character of Vivian is a prostitute too. I can't see it being based off Pretty Woman, I can't see TellTale doing that somehow... It's an idea though. A few others have raised other possible Fables that she could be from, but unfortunately I can't remember the name...

    Either way, I think she is definitely suspicious. I kind of thought so from the moment Bigby met her in Ep.2...

    I guess we will (hopefully) find out her involvement eventually!

  • I noticed the card (on a second playthrough) but I was immediately suspicious of the way she kept insisting that Crane was the killer at the Pudding and Pie. She was outright insisting that it could be no one else, it felt like. She's currently my prime suspect. I don't think BM and the Crooken Man are involved, directly at least.

  • Oh that's an interesting theory. I hadn't actually connected the cigerette Vivian was smoking to the Georgie's Huff and Puff machine/Open Arms hotel room. I'm usually good at picking up on things like that. xD I knew the Tweedles and Crane were more involved than they were letting on but I never suspected them or anyone else as the killer yet. Vivan just seems nice to me though but your theory does make ALOT of sense... and at this stage she is more of a background character so you could be onto something. Hmmm... I guess I want to believe it's more to do with Bloody Mary and the Crooked Man though (or a character still not yet seen) because they are definitely involved!

    Onto Nerissa though, I don't believe she is guilty of anything though. Well... she might know something but be sworn to secrecy because of the ribbon spell but I believe if she could tell us, she would so I don't believe she's involved. She seems too nice and innocent for that. She helped us by giving us the key to 204 and I don't think her reaction to what Bigby tells her about 207 is strange. She knew Lily had been murdered and that she was last seen in 207 - Cranes room. It doesn't take much to figure out that's where it happened. She also see's what happens at the end of episode 3 and is seen coming to see Bigy in the next episode. I do believe she knows she's in danger. . If you read the fable entries it says Georgie took a liking to Vivian and that's why she the hostess but clearly we know from episode 2, he's not too fond of Nerissa... and two of her colleagues (both of which appear to be good friends judging by the photo from Lilys things) are dead...

    I do have to ask though... if Georgie's a pimp how come we've only seen Faith, Nerissa & Vivian (we never actually met Lily)? Surely there's more than 4 girls and they might know something? He's not very good at his job if the only girls he's got keep getting murdered...

  • I see a lot of my conclusions here. Glad I could help but don't be surprised if this won't happen. TTG is watching and changing the story.

    My hypothesis for today. Vivian helped the killer; P&P client. Her words: "...we cater to the "diverse tastes" of the Fable community. Your pleasure is our pleasure. Your desires are our disires. Your imagination is the menu and discretion is our guarantee."

    Nerissa, Faith and Lily were friends. You don't see Vivian in the photo. Maybe she was taking it or maybe her absence means something.

  • I've definitely noticed that almost everybody isn't who they seem. Not to mention, Aunty Greenleaf's message: "You really have no idea what's going on do you?" She seemed kind of mocking, and it makes me think that a lot of Fables, both out and inside the Woodlands, know what is going on. And then there's this whole Bloody Mary thing. A lot of people are confused as to why she didn't kill Bigby, and the answer is really simple: The Crooked Man told her not to. Why the Crooked Man did that, I don't know, but it's clear he's the one with the real authority. People with as much power to control a maniac like Bloody Mary are going to be relatively well-known, and probably feared by lesser Fables. Not to mention, the spell on Georgie's girls. Vivian's definitely more involved in this case than most, but it seems as if everyone is one way or another.

  • Cheers for this, I completely forgot the girl that snow called was vivian.

  • Very, VERY interesting.

  • OP needs to apply to her local law enforcement as a detective. This is one of the most plausible theories I've seen yet.

  • Some of the information I caught to make me think it was her. It are still things that bother me. Lily was missing for two weeks in Episode 1 but Holly knew she worked at the Puddin' and Pie. So did she know by word of mouth or did Lily mention it? Beauty was pretty vague about what she saw. Is it possible that Lily was killed earlier than Faith? Are we sure that Woody's Axe is the murder weapon? The timeline does not work for me. It was also strange that clothes Lily were nicely hung up in the telly and she was found with Snow's clothes on. I don't think that picture was taken the night before. But I'll guess we will see.

  • You know what? Kudos to Crane. He deduced that the Pudding 'n Pie girls themselves were probably at the core of the mystery, found what seemed to be a way to break the silencing spell and went there to try and clear his name without hesitation instead of leaving town and forcing Bigby to chase after him. That's pretty badass for a perv and an otherwise incompetent administrator. If the ring hadn't been defect, he might have solved the whole case just like that. Credit where it's due.

  • edited April 2014

    This is a great theory! Is it alright to discuss it on the Telltale forum, are they going to change who the killer is if someone here gets it right? I don't know how they work, but throwing a theories on their forum while the game is working progress... it seems like they might react to it. Anyway, as I mentioned in other thread, it seems to me like Nerissa recognized Crooked Man's driver, you could see him while Bloody Mary got into the car and he is the same guy from the episode 1, the one with the hat and thorn pants!

    @Off_Ground Bigby to Crane: "Because we're better at this than you are", might be, but Crane is better detective than Bigby. Some things that Bigby misses really start to annoy me, I get that the player is Bigby, but few times I drew right conclusion way before Bigby did, actually I'm still waiting for him to deduce the significance of the ribbon, the two guys that keep popping up and the fact that Faith was covering for Lily when she got killed.

  • I just assumed that Crane always knew about the spell, and it was part of whatever scheme he's been involved in with the girls. He didn't just deduce that stuff.

  • edited April 2014

    By the way did you notice Bloody Mary's hand gesture when she was returning to car, it is the same as Faiths from the episode one. Even the sentences they speak at that point are the same, Faith says "I'll see you around, Wolf" and Blood Mary "See you around".

    There is the fact that we last saw Woodys axe at the same time when we last saw Faith alive (Bigby turned and axe was gone from the sidewalk) and now the axe reappears in the hand of the person who does the same gesture and speaks the same sentence as Faith. Is it just coincidence? I am prone to crazy theories, but with glamour involved everything is possible, they still might be the same person.

  • edited April 2014

    I get where you're going to this, but if Telltale just let's Bigby blurt it out it leaves nothing for the player to think about. Isn't it exactly the reason why we're all on here discussing theories?

  • edited April 2014

    I like the similarities you point out between Faith and Bloody Mary. But what's her(and her bosses) game then?

    The axe thing.. Well, Faith leaves it in, Bigby pulls it out and puts in on the sidewalk. Faith is really no way near the axe, when Bigby turns around and finds Woody and the axe gone. I guess the best assumption here is that Woody just took it with him. :p

  • edited April 2014

    It was a strain at best, I admit, it. Could be an accomplice of hers (ginger man or that guy with the hat) who took the axe, but to be honest I doubted from the very beginning that it's much more than a coincidence.

    Still, wanted to point out the similarities though. You know, throwing theories at the wall and see what will stick.

  • edited April 2014

    Not to blurt it out exactly, but to show him deduce things a bit more, at least so we can see that he's trying to connect things (at least the obvious ones), he doesn't even have to come to the right conclusion right away.

    But it seems that his detective work consists only of going from location to location while racing the clock and asking questions. Though it is, of course, pretty legitimate part of detective work, it is only part of it, he should also connect the clues of the things he found and answers he got, searching for irregularities and similarities.

  • edited April 2014

    I sort of agree. But I actually expect to see something like that near the end. Either Bigby deducing it himself, or you as Bigby get it to fit together, like the scene in Toads house where you figure out what really happened, or Lily's crimescene and the book. I loved the Toad scene.

    Much similar to the way he actually works the case in the first issues of Fables, just where you get to do the deducing instead.

  • edited April 2014

    I loved the Toad scene too! That's exactly what I'm talking about, it was a great scene, and I wish there were more like that. Hope there will be in future episodes.

    I read that first five issues of the comic, there were only issues I did got to read so far. I'm pretty much expecting the usual "parlor room scene" at the end.

  • edited April 2014

    What I have been thinking about is the fact that.. This seems a lot bigger than originally and way bigger than just two murders.

    While I don't expect it as such, I could actually see this game spanning more than one season. I'm not entirely sure the two murders are connected yet, and we could easily solve the one thing in one season, and come back for the rest in season two.

  • Good thinking. Not sure I'd like that, but it is a possibility. And a financially profitable one for Telltale, even if they haven't planed it, I think you just gave them an idea. You should ask for the share of the profit, as their unofficial marketing manager.

    Though I must say that I'm pretty sure that the murders are connected.

  • It makes a lot of sense, actually. Shit. Congrats for blowing my mind :D
    Alt text

  • One of the best theories yet

  • I never really took much notice in Vivian and never considered that she was a suspect. This thread just changed my mind and made me question my judgement.

  • edited April 2014

    Good job, Vivian has been on my prime suspects list since episode 3. I noticed her behavior and most of the things you pointed out. But I totally forgot about the call in the first episode, I couldn't remember it was Vivian the one with the massage. I get the feeling she is the one, things really seem to link. But now what's her motivation really and why leaving the heads at the door. As Bigby suspected in first episode, it's probably a message but why? I'm tempted to think it could be a message for Snow but idk we'll see.

  • Actually in the comics he seems to work that way. Let the impression he slips things out but keep everything to himself because he is considering everyone... again EVERYONE a possible suspect. So there might be a turning point in which he puts all the puzzle pieces together and finally reveal his theory and stop playing dull. It would be great a scene with a reveal similar to the one in the comics in which he reveals what happened to Rose Red. Another theory could be he is kind of "new" to the job but that's very unlikely.

  • Vivian didn't give Crane the massage all she does is take the calls. Lily was the one who gave the "Massage" to Crane. But like Bigby said, "why bring wine to a massage?" The plan was took in the Open Arms in room 207 but when Crane left some one broke in and murdered Lily.. maybe. And took her body and threw it in a lake? But one thing.. In episode 2 when Bigby and Snow were looking at Lilys dead body that was still glamoured as Snow White, when Crane came in.. He didn't do anything! Unless he was really good at keeping a poker face and keeping things secret. Unless Crane in that photo wasn't really him.

  • edited April 2014

    Here's hoping... Still, I think that he shouldn't be able to play dumb on us players, we are supposed to partly become Bigby when playing the game. I wouldn't want character to deduce everything by himself, what's the purpose of my controlling him in the game then? There ought to be fine balance between the two. And he's not new to the job, he's been a sherif since 1700's.

  • I now I wasn't really referring to that kind of new however you are totally right there should have been some monologues. I would have loved the opportunity for us gamers to put what we know so far together under the contemplation of Bigby at the end of each episode. But maybe we will still get the chance for something like that in the upcoming episodes.

  • edited April 2014

    Yeah, that would be great. I hope he'll spend some time in his office or apartment contemplating and connecting the evidence in the next episode, instead of just running from place to place. I get it why it was that way in episode 3, the whole episode was about racing the clock and finding Crane, and it was really done great (felt like a thriller genre at times), but now I think the storyline needs to slow down a bit, or it would feel rushed and incomplete, at least for me. It would be easy to do and also quite logical, since after the injuries sustained at the end of episode 3, he shouldn't be able to run anywhere for a while anyway, at least not in the beginning of the episode 4.

    By the way, I also wouldn't mind at all another scene like the one from Toads place in episode 1, where he was trying to figure out what happened. It was similar to his investigation of Roses murder/disappearance from comics, where he pretty quick figured out what happened in her apartment.

  • Exactly but we have seen him in his office in the ep 4 trailer so he will probably try to put everything together there and maybe there will be something slipping and Nerissa will bring the last piece of the puzzle with whatever she wanted to tell Bigby.

  • edited April 2014

    Quite possible, that would be my guess also, or should I say hope. He'll probably try to connect gathered clues and evidence either there or in his apartment where we also saw him to be, along with Snow, in episode 4 preview. Anyway, I'm glad that you agree with me on this matter.

    By the way, since I mentioned 1700's earlier, I got an idea.... I'd definitely like to see Wolf Among Us with Bigby and Snow in colonial times, how about you?

  • edited April 2014

    1) What would Vivan gain from killing off her friends? She is already the number one girl, what motive could she possibly have for silencing them? When they have already been glamored with the spell of secrets for the use of their professionalism?

    2) The murder weapon is of magic origin, the only weapon fitting this description seen is Woody's axe, the donkey dagger doesn't cut it, although possibly Bluebeard's knife.

    3) Unless Vivan changes into a harpy to dispose of the bodies. How did she dispose of a troll weighing so much more then herself? Somebody was cut on the fence when delivering ass girl's head (Faith). Although when as fables they heal in seconds. Wearing denim cloth leaving jean fabric behind.

    4) Why are you laughing at me, or stop laughing at me, TJ had informed. When Lilly was dumped. Suggesting possibly a pair of killers or a sociopath?

  • Great theory! I think I'm now inclined to believe Vivian is the killer.

  • edited April 2014

    Here is my input. There's heavy 'wolf and sheep' themes in some of the episode names. We all know about the wolf dressing up as a sheep and what not, I assume, right?

    Hookers are dying. Let's say they are sheep. So the wolf....dresses up as a sheep.... The killer being one of the hookers would make sense.

    My guess is Vivian is killing the other hookers, maybe out of sympathy because they have to put up with their jobs and the no talking spell and the crooked man....all of that. The letter you mentioned supports this.

    Or perhaps there's something else going on that all the girls know about, and when ever one of them wants to tell someone about it, Vivian kills them.

    Maybe Nerissa knows but she can't tell anyone because of the spell. Maybe that's why Faith was killed too, for trying to tell someone. Remember that Lilly was killed before Faith(Grendel was at Bigby's office wanting to report Lilly's disappearance around when Faith was killed, and it probably would have taken a while for them to think she was missing), so Faith could have already known about Vivian killing people and wanted to tell the sheriff.

    Also another piece of evidence that I'm not sure if you mentioned or not. Vivian would probably have the key to Lilly's room, or be able to get it.

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