UPDATED 2.0 What was Faith looking for at Woody's? Who Killed her? Who Killed Lily?

The stolen photo. Nobody; Faith (aided by Vivian).

I apologize for the length, but please read this first post for a preface on the theory. See bold paragraph below on why I think Faith is alive. To help navigate this theory, you can search (control-f on PC), the following: Search (WITHOUT QUOTES for all these): "Comment1" on the importance of, "Stupid girls and their preposterous schemes." See "Comment2" on why Faith isn't so innocent. See "Comment3" for why I think the cigarette in 207 may have been Faith's, not Vivian's. See "Comment4" for when this all happened and whose corpse is used in place of Faith's. See "Comment5" about why Woody and Gren know about what happened to Lily, and for why Crane was there the day/night of Lily's murder, and for why Holly may not be telling everything she knows.

What was Faith looking for?

What was Faith looking for at Woody's? We all thought it was money for services. But it doesn't appear that any such transaction had occurred. Moreover, when asked by Bigby what happened, she never mentions work. She claims it was a "little misunderstanding". So, people have begun to think she wasn't after cash. Lately, many people have picked the Woodsman’s axe as what faith was “looking for”…however this cannot be true for three big reasons:

  1. She could have made off with the axe already a couple times: She could have taken it in Bigby and Woody’s fight before Woody uses it as a weapon. She also could have taken it after Bigby throws it on the sidewalk and Woody is still down.
  2. Too heavy. Look how hard it is for her to lift it. She hits Woody like a princess, which I suppose is appropriate.
  3. The main reason: She isn’t completely satisfied looking until she checks his pockets. An axe cannot fit in a pocket, but an incriminating photograph could! That is what Faith was looking for.

See 15:15 – 16:17 for the scene I talk about below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX0_68YhDNE
  1. Faith stole an incriminating photo of Crane.
  2. Crane hires “Dee & Dum to steal it. Crane was already in massive debt to the CM, so whatever the photo in question, it must be worth more than $500 (the amount he is charged)
  3. We then see that Faith loses possession of the photo. She asks the twins to find the same picture. Both Faith and Crane are looking for the same photo, but although charging $500 for the search, the twins are not helping Crane; they are helping Faith. Another thing, there is a conspicuous lack of a charge on Faith's request to find the photograph. There are dollar figures everywhere else on anyone's file who requests something to be done by the twins, but not Faiths. It is almost as if she has special privileges.

Why Faith is alive

Toad (in Ep. 2) claims Dee trashed his house while looking for something he thought the Woodsman had (the photo). If Faith was, in fact, dead, then Dee would not come to Toad’s to look for the photo! If the client is deceased, Dee would get no money! If he isn't charging her at all, that brings up more questions! It's doubtful Dee would do a favor for a dead friend for no money. Moreover, when Toad offers Dee her coat, Dee refuses it. This means that Dee knows Faith is alive and that she doesn't want the coat (see one of the comments below) If she were missing or dead, he would have used it as evidence. If she were alive but not communicating, he'd take it. Only if she was alive and made it known to Dee that she doesn't want it, would he have just left it with toad.

Crane, Snow, Lily, and Faith:

"Use this" were the words written on Lily's Snow Glamour: We can infer, because there are instructions on it, that it must have been Lily's first time glamouring as Snow for Crane. But Crane says his proclivities (his Snow fetish/"massages") have been going for “too long” according to Crane himself at the end of episode three.

Well then, who was Crane's regular Snow-girl before the Lily's last night? I think it was Faith. Remember Faith said she stole a photograph from Crane. Crane lives on a high floor, in the nicest suite in the woodlands. Faith is tough, but not a ninja. She would have needed to be in his apartment (he would have had to let her in), or she would have needed to be close to him to steal it. That is why I think he is so distraught at the end of episode 3. When it comes to his culpability, he casually says to Snow and Bigby, “I didn’t kill those women.” When it comes to their actual deaths, But he desperately cries, “Tell me who killed her!” In this case, “Her” is not Lily . "Her" is Faith. He isn’t looking to be absolved of guilt. He is looking for murderer of the closest person with whom he has had a relationship. Snow intimidates him, but a woman who looks exactly like Snow and is free because he is paying out of embezzled funds – that’s the next best thing. Also, Crane bring wine to his "massages" with prostitutes. WHY BRING GIFTS TO A HOOKER? SEX IS A GIVEN. UNLESS, THE WINE WAS MEANT AS A ROMANTIC GESTURE.

This is a slight digression: Why did crane want all those random items (see again 15:15 - 16:17 above)? It's sounds sarcastic, but I think he was planning to try to summon an army of Golems or Space Aliens. Not kidding. The Williams Enigmalith, (one of the four items bought by Crane), was found in 1998, by the way – some 15 years after this game takes place. Its discoverer claims it may hold extra-terrestrial power. Crane also bought a “warlock ring”, and stone shoes, and a “book of stone”. Well, we know he was trying every magical item to get to the bottom of it, and was probbaly sold these bad goods (one of which doesn't exist for 15 years) by Dee.

Who killed the girls?

Lily wants to meet up with Faith before Faith goes to Woodman's apartment. I think Lily had probably stolen the incriminating photo of Crane from Faith, and had either kept it herself, or had given it to the Woodsman. Knowing the Woodsman was angry and broke, I think Lily lied and asked Faith to work for her, to send Faith to the Woodsman’s in hopes of her being killed. She may have even lied and said she heard a rumor Woody had it to provoke an altercation. Perhaps the photo was incriminating of her as well. Perhaps Lily didn't want Faith knowing about her and the Woodsman. Perhaps Lily could sense Faith maybe was up to something nefarious. In any case, I think Lily's plan backfired, to say the least.

We know that Faith made it back to the Puddin and Pie because Bigby's money comes back in the second episode. Even if you don't give her money, we know she made it back because her makeup made it back too! That same compact and lipstick that Faith had when Bigby and her first met are back at the cubbies. My guess is that, Faith had pieced together that Lily had at least lied, but possibly even set her up. Faith told Georgie and Vivian. It's possible, but less likely, that Lily just asked to switch shifts. However, I think she'd have heard about Faith's death, and then would have had no reason to follow through with Crane. I think that Faith, in an effort to regain the lost photo, may very well have faked her own death. What would this accomplish? After telling Georgie and Vivian, they would make sure that Crane has his massage, but by Lily this time -- letting Vivian (who makes the appointments) know exactly when and where Lily would be. As far as the mess goes, it could be after Lily returns to the Puddin and Pie, she discovered (because of Faith's items), that she had not been killed. She rifles through Faith's things to confirm and quickly gets out. Lily also could have broke them out of frustration right before she has to do Crane for her employers.

As far as the laughing goes, I wouldn’t doubt it if Faith herself was there for tossing her into the water. Either Faith was laughing at how badly Lily’s plan backfired and the professional killer, Vivian, told her to shut up. Or alternatively, Vivian was laughing sadistically and Faith told her to be quiet, because Lily was a friend of hers (at some point).

Remember also that Lily had an extra glamour tube. Maybe those are her normal glamours, and she planned on going back to the Woodsman later to ask if he get the job done?” It also could be an unrevealed glamour, perhaps stolen from Faith's jewelry box. We know that glamour tube is a White Dove, not a White Deer (Greenleaf). It could be used later on in the story to cement a story or support a new arc.

Either all this, or: actually it was Faith who wanted to kill Lily. She could have forged the note and made it appear as if there was some kind of struggle with the jewelry box and makeup box being broken. After seeing how chummy Faith was/is with the twins, I am actually starting to lean towards Faith setting Lily up. It really could go either way (a conniving plot or a defensive retaliation), but after revisiting just how willing the twins (who work for Bloody Mary, who in turn works for the Crooked Man) are to carry out a seemingly free job for Faith, I am starting to think Faith might actually be a bad guy here.

In any case, the fact that Dee is working what could be a pro bono case for a supposedly dead girl is reason to think she is still alive. Not only that, but the corpse being not Faith, would explain why Swineheart won’t let Bigby or Snow see Faith’s corpse. It is because the glamour has worn off and it isn’t her corpse or head. I had originally accused Swineheart of pretty much everything, but it is just as, if not more likely, that he is being forced by the Crooked man, and/or whoever is above him (the one casting the silence spell) to not release the body.

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Comments

  • edited May 2014

    NVM

  • edited April 2014
    1. The corpse could be anyone. It does not particularly matter, as long as it is not her. Maybe one of the other dancers who have cubbies that we never see.
    2. They had to die to produce a corpse for Bigby, Snow, Crane, and all of the Woodlands to find.
    3. No she did not walk off with the axe. Watch it again, there is a period after Bigby beats up the Woodsman, where Bigby throws the axe on the ground. then, he and Faith talk. Then, the Woodsman and his axe are gone.
    4. It's pretty heavy. Heavy enough to break the jaw of a fable from jab range. Also she can barely lift the thing.
    5. Okay you were right it was poorly worded at first. I chopped the end off a sentence and stuck it onto another. There is just the one photo. I've clarified myself, and also pointed out how Faith's request to find the photo doesn't come with a bill (the only task that doesn't have a dollar figure attached to it).
    6. The Woodsman got the photo because Lily gave it to him. He was her main client, and they were together a lot. It's not just me picking a random person, here; the story follows. Dee shows up in episode two at Toad's place and demands something that the Woodsman has or thinks that the woodsman has. (This is according to Toad after you finally catch him in all his lies). Dee thinks it might be at Toad's because Toad steals things from his neighbors, as revealed by Toad Jr.
    7. Okay then why did they snatch Crane up? Perhaps he knows too much? He doesn't seem to know who killed the girls. He was the most indebted to the Crooked Man and the least useful. The pseudo-threat part was a reference to the items he bought from CM. That digression was more a joke than anything else, but you never know.
    8. The book of fables is allowed to lie, you know. Or at the very least, it can be outdated. Faith's biography is printed when we are in episode one. It isn't until episode three that we find out about the stolen photograph.
    9. Woodsman was talking about LRR at the end. I know you disagree, but assume temporarily what I posted was true. If you were the Woodsman, you would feel like you were saying too much, and then change your story. That is why Bigby isn't impressed and one of the choices is, "Ive heard this story before."
    10. What? No. "Procure" means to buy. You can't pay off debt by buying things. It's how you get into debt.
    11. We know a day has passed because when you talk to Toad junior, he says, "last night" when he was swimming in the water...
    Ascari posted: »

    NVM

  • "Who Was Crane's Regular girl before the Lily night? I think it was Faith"
    When you said this, I instantly thought Vivian because remember in Episode 1 when Crane walked out of his office and said "Snow call Vivian I have a morning massage" When Crane was in the Business Office he was looking for his special wine, but like Bigby said "Why would he bring wine to a massage?"

  • edited April 2014

    Yeah good thought, but Vivian just schedules the massages. Yes, "massage" is a euphemism for a sex-date with someone glamoured to look like Snow.

    "Who Was Crane's Regular girl before the Lily night? I think it was Faith" When you said this, I instantly thought Vivian because

  • So Vivian is the one who scheduled the "massage". Possibly the girl who actually gave Crane the massage was Lily but glamoured as Snow? Just the thought of it is disgusting >_<

    Yeah good thought, but Vivian just schedules the massages. Yes, "massage" is a euphemism for a sex-date with someone glamoured to look like Snow.

  • edited April 2014

    Yes. The girl who gave Crane the massage, that next night, was Lily.

    So Vivian is the one who scheduled the "massage". Possibly the girl who actually gave Crane the massage was Lily but glamoured as Snow? Just the thought of it is disgusting >_<

  • So was that incriminating photo of Crane the one we find in 207? Why even involve Bigby/Snow? Was Faith even brought up since episode one? When they did see him, why would they not ask about Faith? Why she'd leave her coat at the Woodsman's? I'm not saying it is not plausible, but it seems to be a lot to go through. Either way, the lack of Faith being mentioned by Bigby and Snow isinteresting, to say the least.

    1. I don't know at this very moment
    2. Headless Horseman
    3. Headless Horseman
  • edited May 2014

    Comment1

    "So was that incriminating photo of Crane the one we find in 207?" The photo most likely was the one in 207, that or there might be another twist in ep. four or five. Note that in the video above, Lily is where Dee stops looking, with the Woodsman being the last person to be crossed off. Meaning, two possible things, the first being Lily just kept the photo to herself. That or, after Dee searched Woody's apartment, Woody gave it back to Lily or Lily demanded it back. If the photo we find in 207 is the stolen photo, Faith either gave it to Vivian to plant there, or she was there herself and put it there.

    "Stupid girls and their preposterous schemes." What Crane sees through the mirror is the basis of this quote. Crane also knows he had just been there. Likely, he realizes the girl isn't faith after she doesn't do any of her usual snow things, etc (it is her first night). This corroborates with what beauty said about the music stopping halfway through. Crane storms out because he knows he's been duped and something is up. The "stupid girls" are some unknown girl who he had thought was Faith, and her hooker associates (he doesn't know it was Vivian, because he had been watching either Beauty or Bigby -- remember the mirror can only look at fables, not locations). The "preposterous scheme" is that he had just been framed.

    "Why even involve Bigby/Snow?" Bigby and snow were involved because Crane didn't know that Faith had stolen the photo. We, as the audience, only later learn faith stole it in episode three.

    "Has Faith even been brought up since episode one?" If you interrogate the Woodsman, he says that he was pissed and hit Faith because he was expecting Lily (his usual), but Faith shows up instead. Everyone presumes her dead since the body, which actually strengthens this theory.

    "When they did see him [Crane], why would they not ask about Faith?"If she had been brought up in an accusatory way, Crane wouldn't have asked Bigby and Snow to look into it.

    "Why she'd leave her coat at the Woodsman's? I'm not saying it is not plausible, but it seems to be a lot to go through" Good question, and important deduction here. It is because the coat was longer useful to her. She only used it to hide her beauty from her now dead father, and she had separated from Lawrence. She was probably wearing it at the Woodsman's and when she meets Bigby. Remember that she she uses it to hide her flawless beauty, so no makeup would have been needed. She may well have planted it at Woody's after the altercation, as a message to Lily. Woody may have recognized it for what it was, and in an attempt to not freak Lily out, threw it away. Toad is a scavenger and he found it and took it. This is the important deduction. Toad offers the coat to Dee, but Dee refuses it. This means that Dee knows Faith is alive, and he also knows she wants nothing to do with the coat. If she were missing or dead, he would have used it as evidence. If she were alive, he would have given it back to her. Only if she was alive and made it known to Dee that she doesn't want it, would he have just left it with toad. Now...for those of you who think Bigby will disguise himself in the next episode, leaving the coat could be a huge blunder. Ever wonder how Bigby will disguise himself?

    I am glad you think it is plausible, but a lot to go through. If it weren't plausible, well that would be bad. If it were easy to deduce, the story, and the game wouldn't be any fun. The next episodes will be interesting!

    pcharl01 posted: »

    So was that incriminating photo of Crane the one we find in 207? Why even involve Bigby/Snow? Was Faith even brought up since ep

  • This is one of the best and more interesting theories here. Well done!

    Comment1 "So was that incriminating photo of Crane the one we find in 207?" The photo most likely was the one in 207, that or t

  • edited May 2014

    Comment2

    Let's look at the only time we get to see Faith, and relate her words and actions back to what we now know. There are many subtle things in the first and only (so far) conversation with Faith that lead me to believe she isn’t as helpless or as innocent as we all first thought for these reasons:

    1. “These lips are sealed.” Refer to the first video below. Notice the way each girl says it. Nerissa says it begrudgingly, as if she really wants to say something, but can’t do it. Vivian says it proudly, and with a smile, as if she is proud of whomever created the spell and likes the “discretion”. Faith says it twice (if you choose it correctly). First confidently, almost forcefully. Second casually, and (to me, fake) apologetically, as if to say, “Sorry, Sheriff, I can’t help you.” See 9:28 – 9:38 for first one. Contrast that tone to Nerissa’s. Nerissa is distraught she can’t say anything and is actually sorry she can’t help. See 14:28 – 14:38 for the second one.

    2. The ribbon. Faith asks Bigby if he likes her ribbon. Neither video picked this choice, but most of us picked “beautiful”. If she was truly under control of someone who was out to kill her using the ribbon (as many have theorized), she likely wouldn’t have brought it up. However, she may well bring it up if she wanted to give a sad look for Bigby (and for all of us) to think of her as a victim,

    3. The way she interacts with the Woodsman. Refer to in the second video below. She’s completely unafraid of him. She spits in his face. She screams “Fuck you!” at him. Not only is she not scared of him, she seems to like inflicting pain upon him. She kicks him (with a vicious look on her face) and grinds the axe in his skull. She knows something about how hard it is to kill fables (prior experience?). See 12:10 – 12:32 in the second vid.

    4. The way she interacts with Bigby. Refer to the second video below. She claims to know a lot about him, like where he lives, “You live in the smallest apartment in the woodlands. Everyone knows that.” Do they really? We have no evidence to suggest people do not know that, but we have no evidence that “everyone knows that”. Not only that, but if you choose “make a joke” (see 13:06 – 13:16 in the 2nd vid), she seems to know that Bigby smokes a lot, even though he never lit up in front of her. Maybe she even knows what brand he smokes. Perhaps she plants a Huff N Puff (or tells Vivian to do it) at the crime scene? Remember too, that there are old photos in that envelope. Only the person who was originally glamoured to be Snow would have had them. Also, consider the last words Faith said to Bigby, “You’re not as bad as everyone says you are.” See 16:20 – 16:35 in second vid. This could be a double-entendre. She could mean either or both of: You’re not as tough or scary as everyone says you are (meaning she’s not scared of him – just like she isn’t of the Woodsman). It could also mean you’re not as bad a person as everyone says you are. Well, if my theory is true, then yes, compared to Faith, Bigby is a saint.

    Let’s assume for now Faith is alive. There are still a ton of questions. I still like my theory better than these alternatives, and if you've read this far, you know my theory so I will skip it. I'll play my own Devil's Advocate. Here are plausible alternatives:

    1. What if she faked her death to get back at someone else or to hatch some other kind of plan (nothing against Lily)?

    2. What if someone kidnapped her and faked her death for her?

    3. What if she faked her death out of necessity, not a plan – she could have been injured (see below).

    Going off my 3rd alternative: When you visit prince Lawrence, he has a gunshot wound to his chest. He says he thinks he tried to off himself but isn’t sure. Now, there is also a bloody knife, but Lawrence has no stab wounds. If you DON’T save prince Lawrence, and ask, “who did this to you?” he says, as he’s dying, “Faith.” Now, he actually says that response for all the choices but still. What if faith tried to assassinate Lawrence and he fought back, stabbing her, and forcing her into hiding for a bit?

    The fact that she is so friendly with the twins (see my original post), to me, all but rules out alternative two. Alternative three could happen, but that alone isn’t a sufficient condition to explain why she is so friendly with the twins. Either my theory, or alternative number one would explain that.

    Again, this does not mean case closed by any means! First, I could be wrong (yes, I am aware of that!) Second, as pointed out in my alternatives, we don’t know what Faith is doing during episodes two and three, or why she disappeared. Third, and most important: There are still a ton of questions to be answered! What does the white dove glamour tube mean? By the way, there is a story about a white dove witch.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Dove_(Danish_fairy_tale)

    What’s Faith’s role in the game? Who is the Crooked Man? Is Bluebeard friend or foe (most think foe, but I am not so sure)? Is Greenleaf friend or foe? What do BCW and Tiny Tim have to do with this? Who is casting the silence spell?

    Point is, even if I am right, there is a lot to solve left. I stand by what I said. The next episodes will be interesting!

  • edited May 2014
    Could Lilly have been murdered prior to Crane making any arrangements with Vivan?

    It is all connected the further entwined, what there is are many not so innocent fables.
  • Very doubtful. Toad Jr. said he found a body the night of Lily's murder. Snow and Bigby go to the 13th floor to examine the body that was found, and after the glamur wears off, we find it is Lily.
    Bobit posted: »

    Could Lilly have been murdered prior to Crane making any arrangements with Vivan? It is all connected the further entwined, what there is are many not so innocent fables.

  • edited May 2014
    Quite possible if going by the hard evidence recovered. Lilly had been missing for weeks, Woody's regular was Lilly. Faith had to replace Woody's regular. Woody was very angry about Faith, attacking her causing the opening. Crane's only interest was in a Snow White. This undoubtedly could have been any girl. The talking when Lilly's body was being dumped, heard by TJ. Meaning possibly a different person or persons to the killer Lilly's head however may have been missing from her body already. Why deliver the head on the same night, because the body had been discovered, prompting a chain of events causing the real killer to cover up all their tracks.

    When Crane calls to visit, a dead Lilly is in the room. The music was played simply to remove the body from there. Crane is shocked that Snow White was a Troll, dulling out his hate of Trolls and his concern about STD's from the drug use.

    The only other evidence was a note which mentioned something about changing shifts in the P'n'P. The photos being left in the hotel room. Suggesting different fact, or the killer returned to incriminate

    Very doubtful. Toad Jr. said he found a body the night of Lily's murder. Snow and Bigby go to the 13th floor to examine the body that was found, and after the glamur wears off, we find it is Lily.

  • edited May 2014
    I am sorry if I am not answering your comment here. I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean to say in some parts.

    Yes, Lily had been missing for weeks, but it was Holly who called her in missing. Georgie or any of his girls woudn't be one to call up Snow and say, "Look, we've found the missing girl. Don't worry, she's been here the whole time,"

    A body swap is a possibility, but I doubt it. You do have a good point about the head possibly being different, but Toad Jr. says, "she didn't have her head on". Dissect that sentence. He doesn't say, "there was no head". He means it was severed. If there was no head at all, how then, did Snow and Bigby recover one?

    If the Lily had been killed weeks ago, neither the body or head show any signs of decomposition.

    The body and head that was found was recognized by Snow and by Holly to be Lily. The body had trackmarks on it, and Holly says that she had been using Mundy drugs.

    The brooch that was recovered on Lily's body was also recognized by Holly to be her sisters charm.

    If you watch the scene where they examine the body, Crane shows genuine shock when the glamour wears off and it turns out to be a troll. It is only after that when he says, "should have left them back in the homelands." If he had been at 207 and had seen a dead troll, he wouldn't have been shocked when the body was found.

    The music was likely stopped halfway through (as beauty says) because Crane figured out that whoever was playing Snow White, was not his usual girl. He figured that out because it was her first time, and wasn't used to all the probably idiosyncrasies and nuances that the regular Snow would do for Crane.

    I am not sure what you mean about the noise when the body was dumped, and I don't know where Crane (or anyone) ever mentions STDs.

    "The only other evidence was a note which mentioned something about changing shifts in the P'n'P. The photos being left in the hotel room. Suggesting different fact, or the killer returned to incriminate" I am not quite sure what this means, sorry.
    Bobit posted: »

    Quite possible if going by the hard evidence recovered. Lilly had been missing for weeks, Woody's regular was Lilly. Faith had to

  • edited May 2014
    It was Holly and Grant who had said Lilly was missing. Grant the day or whatever after Bigby slept. when Faith's head was discovered was making inquiries at the Woodlands Office about Lilly. Prompting conflict prior to Bigby's entry. Holly had known about her sister's whoring and drug use, when she was questioned by Bigby. For Weeks her sister hadn't been seen prompting an investigation, but wasn't investigated pushed to the side causing a divide between the classes of Fabletown..

    Lilly could have been easily killed before Crane goes to make his visit. Causing the trouble of moving the body in particular playing the music loudly, but not the entire song. Had this been Crane he would have most likely finished his ritual.

    As you have pointed out so aptly proving my point. The head could have already been in the killers possession. Severed from the body possibly at a different time then the body. Having no head on means exactly what it says?

    Lilly the Troll looked so much different then her Holly when showing signs of decomposition

    Lilly's body was also recognized by Bigby as in the option to say that is Holly's sister the B button reply on the right I believe from memory, or on the left using the X

    The needle marks when examined. Crane looks quite worried, inquiring about diseases transmitted from them

    The talking when Lilly was dumped heard by TJ

    There was a note to Lilly about changing shift's left on the Pudding and Pie floor from Vivan.

    The photo's left under the bed in the hotel room where Lilly was killed

    I suppose that it gives you the right to be rude, patronizing, when not fully reading after linking video's and submitting script, because your opinion is easily the most valid

    I am sorry if I am not answering your comment here. I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean to say in some parts.

  • edited May 2014
    Okay, I feel like this is just going to be a circular argument here. You think Lily was killed earlier, and that the body was swapped. Also, that the music was used as noise pollution, to remove the body? You're entitled to your own opinion, but I disagree.

    About the head being severed, why go through all the trouble to keep the head separate from the body, only to dump them at the same site at the same time. It doesn't make sense to me.

    If you look under achievements, go to "Sisters", where you complete chapter 3 of episode two. Lily has a naturally darker skin tone than Holly. That is why she appears green/gray. If in fact, Lily was killed weeks before (as you say), she would have other signs of decomposition (marbled appearance, sunken skin, evidence of sarcophagids, maggots, or other carrion having eaten the body).

    Bigby does not recognize Lily Snow has to point it out.

    You must have picked a different option than me. Probably "she was a drug user". Maybe then Crane says something about disease. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

    TJ heard people laughing, not talking. Either way, it is a noise, but I address that in my theory as well.

    I address the note that was found as well in my theory, as well as the photos being left at 207.

    Respectfully, I think it is you, not me who should "fully read" before commenting on my theory. I have read your comments many times to try to understand them. I am sorry if I have a hard time understanding you, but I looked at your profile, and it seems I am not the only one.

    If English is not your first language that is okay, however, please do not mistake my (and others) inability to comprehend your writing as being rude. I appeal to the others reading if I have been rude or not. I am no longer going to reply to this, because I feel it's a non relevant digression and I don't want the thread to be hijacked. Sorry.
    Bobit posted: »

    It was Holly and Grant who had said Lilly was missing. Grant the day or whatever after Bigby slept. when Faith's head was discover

  • edited May 2014
    Listen to yourself please stop and hear the world around you. The problem with people who only see one side is they never see the entire picture. When they are stuck in a single dimension, leaving them quite flattened to any other views but their own. Often from missing out on the complete picture when assuming their own way of thinking or looking at things is the only possible way.

    You have insulted me for my use of slightly dyslexic English, I apologise for my grammar problems. This issue at times comes from me not editing first, possibly in being lazy from a lifetime of misuse..However if I take the time to fully prepare, more then matches your ceaseless driveling. Am I to assume that you are not English? Because of your hostility lacking in common courtesy having no manners, when in considering yourself above anybody else their opinions, by lacking decent upbringing?

    You are speaking for me, I have never named a killer or their motives. You however have, which where most of these problems lay.

    I strongly suggest you find out how to get Bibgy to identify Lilly through using one of his speech options. Him specifically naming Lilly as Holly's sister, from obtaining information from the Trip Trap bar in Episode one.

    You assume I have a different opinion. Because there was evidence found on Lilly's body of her drug misuse. Making Crane worried enough to comment about disease.

    The head was not dumped at the same time as the body in the river that TJ was swimming in. When it was dumped at the Woodlands Tower on the stairs, prompting a non fable police investigation. The real Snow White went to recover the body.

    A bodies decomposition is of absolutely no possible relevance. She had degraded from being dumped in the river. When not looking particularly normal as to when she is dead. Maggot's festering is outside of any particular relevance. They were not Medical Examiner's to offer up a full opinion on time of death when she was examined.

    TJ heard somebody saying Why Are You Laughing? or At Me! Suggesting two people or a complete sociopath.

    If by addressing the Photo's and the Note. You really ought to have had a concise clue, to the source of my comment. Instead of being rude, stating you didn't understand, and not using appropriate questions.

    Further patronizing me, because of your own validity, when considering yourself to be so much better then everybody else. A thread is never hijacked on a forum when in having a debate. You don't see it that way as this thread is your little baby, which is where all the errors are. I had offered an idea, a simple suggestion, which you have later insulted and been rude against.

    Okay, I feel like this is just going to be a circular argument here. You think Lily was killed earlier, and that the body was swap

  • Sorry to intrude but if I'm not mistaken TJ only found the body in the lake, the head was found by bigby at the end of episode one, I think, not sure. ... Oh and if u question TJ throughly the exact words he heard were " stop laughing at me " and wen u ask him if he heard anyone laughing he say no....tht is all

    Okay, I feel like this is just going to be a circular argument here. You think Lily was killed earlier, and that the body was swap

  • I had tried to clarify, possibly muddled? Thank you for your above clarity, gratefully correct in pointing towards both topics.
    Mclovesth posted: »

    Sorry to intrude but if I'm not mistaken TJ only found the body in the lake, the head was found by bigby at the end of episode one

  • Your welcome :) and no problem glad to help
    Bobit posted: »

    I had tried to clarify, possibly muddled? Thank you for your above clarity, gratefully correct in pointing towards both topics.

  • I just realized something. Puddin and Pie is suppose to be discrete about its clientele and its workers, right. So 1. Why would anyone in PnP give Snow information about how much Crane's balance is? 2. Being discrete in this business should mean they only deal in cash, and payment should be made beforehand. Especially considering the jons don't use their own names, how can you confidently bill them?

    Yes. The girl who gave Crane the massage, that next night, was Lily.

  • edited May 2014
    I concede Bobit and Mclovesth were right about the head and body being found at separate times.The fact that the head and body were placed separately gives a very small amount of credence to the theory about Lily being killed long before, but I believe my theory makes much more sense. So we have a disagreement, but not agreeing with a theory isn't being "rude". This is a discussion board. The point of proposing a theory is to see if others agree and to have others give evidence so as to try and disprove your theory.

    Again, I appeal to others reading to look at who is being the rude one here. I am done with defending my (and others) character, and I want only to talk about the theories. I welcome any sort of evidence that would give credence to my theory or try to disprove it.

    Now, let's get to the comments, the actual reason why we're here. I do not believe the head and body being found at different times causes a problem in my theory because:

    1. If Holly were to have looked at either the head or the body and determined either to be not Lily's, she would have said something.

    2. The body's trackmarks corroborate with Holly's testimony that she had been using drugs.

    3. The head looks very similar in color and in appearance of "Sisters", the achievement you receive for completing chapter three of episode two. That is why she appears green/gray.

    4. The decomposition on both the head and the body seems minimal (as if she had been dead for just one night, rather than weeks). If in fact, Lily was killed weeks before (as you have suggested as a possibility), she would have other signs of decomposition (marbled appearance, sunken skin, muscle atrophy, evidence of sarcophagids, maggots, or other carrion having eaten the body).

    5. Holly recognizes the brooch found on Lily's corpse as being Lily's.

    6. Most importantly: The head of Lily was likely placed for Bigby, Crane, and everyone at the Woodlands to find to send a message, just as "Faith's" head was also placed there separately.
  • I think you're mixing up the girls at the pudding at pie with the Crooked Man and his many enterprises (one of which is the pudding and Pie).

    I don't recall anyone ever giving Snow information about Crane's balance. We only find out what his balance is to the Crooked Man in episode three after you search the twins' hideout.

    Yes, the girls at pudding and pie deal in cash only. However, favors/loans taken out from the Crooked Man don't deal in just cash. Probably, they actually don't like cash (they want to keep a running tab + interest to keep people in debt).

    The jons pay cash to the girls, but if you want something from the twins or the crooked man (like a loan, or a stolen photo, or a bunch of useless items like Crane bought), you get sent a hefty invoice with interest if you don't pay right away.
    pcharl01 posted: »

    I just realized something. Puddin and Pie is suppose to be discrete about its clientele and its workers, right. So 1. Why would

  • edited May 2014
    I can only state that there is a way of expressing politely any offered up opinions. Rather then patronizing and using flames to discredit, English, Profile, Hijack etc. When stating from using expressions, coming from having an air that you are without a doubt correct in your given assumption. When further seeking to undermine, but in fact have been proven wrong on some of the information offered in your opinions.

    No I not saying I am right. I was simply offering another suggestion to many overlooked facts, and later provided some credibility to the basis of that suggestion.

    Your only real disregard to any actual evidence present, that you seem so adamant on expressing is of No importance whatsoever. Decomposition! Being specifically that of an artistic impression, which is obviously showing signs of decomposition. Being that it is different and degraded to that of a normal, alive, healthy, Troll and coming from being dumped in the river. But doesn't really look much different, having no *algae around the ankles* (a joke), pond scum on any wet clothing. Trolls by nature have regenerative properties, undoubtedly taking longer to decompose, then there are Rock Trolls of the sinking variety, etc. But there is no real evidence to suggest any otherwise. The body was exhumed after examination, and possibly cannot be recovered. The body was not examined by medical examiners to offer up any theories on a time of death crediting when the murder had actually taken place. Any powerful magic used was of such a great Glamor preventing decomposition. These points are quite irrelevant.

    The rest of any investigation pointed mostly to facts we had already known. That this person wasn't Snow White, finally who this person actually was, but this information was related prior specifically of a missing person. Although when examined importantly uncovered evidence pointing towards potential motives and potential suspects.

    An offered suggestion on time of death, having some evidence pointing towards the suggested comment. But no I am not stating that I am right, or wrong, when seeking to indulge in the entire picture shown.

    I concede Bobit and Mclovesth were right about the head and body being found at separate times.The fact that the head and body wer

  • edited May 2014
    The English being a second language thing was me actually seeing if you spoke Spanish (as I do) so that maybe I could better understand you. I wasn't trying to insult you at all. I also had no idea you were dyslexic, and I am not psychic, so I did not know I would be offending you. I apologize. I again appeal to others reading if I was rude, impolite, patronizing, flaming, or anything else that you have accused or insinuated me of being.

    I actually give five other reasons besides the whole decomposition thing. It is not the only thing I focus on at all in my reply to your comment. Let me remind people again that this is just a reply to your comment, which was a question about a small part of my whole theory. So I am replying to a reply to reply to a reply (you see where this is going) of a small part of a very large theory.

    No, that is not why I suggested you were hijacking my thread. Questions about theories are welcome and encouraged, but ad hominem statements (calling me rude, patronizing, believing myself to be more important than everyone else) attacks are not. I am not guilty of any of those things (see below). You said, "But no I am not stating that I am right, or wrong, when seeking to indulge in the entire picture shown." Okay, good; I too display actual modesty.

    I actually hedge my bets through this theory (not our 'ping-pong" game here) as well. I say, " I am aware that's a rather solipsistic assumption -- as if they will change the story just because of me. I know am not important, but if many fans agreed, it may affect the future episode." I also say, " First, I could be wrong (yes, I am aware of that!)" I also say, "and [I am] only fairly confident about others [parts of my theory]." If you don't believe me, highlight and copy those phrases, and control-f them to find where I posted them.

    Now onto one of the many parts of my theory (your original point of contention). You asked if Lily could have been killed long before. I say no. You say yes. We disagree, which is fine.
    About the evidence for your view of that part of my theory: You could be right, perhaps trolls do decompose totally differently than humans. You say there is no real reason to suggest that trolls and humans decompose the same. YOU'RE RIGHT. I implied there is also no evidence to suggest trolls and humans decompose radically differently. I do not know about the comics, but I am talking about TWAU, specifically about the type of troll that Holly and Lily are.I AM RIGHT TOO. So we have a disagreement, which is fine. It doesn't make me rude, and it doesn't make you rude. It is was this board is for.


    1. I am sorry if I offended you.

    2. I wasn't trying to offend you.

    3. We have really just been beating a dead horse here. I will not respond to any more posts of yours, as responsding only gives you an opportunity to prolong the irrelevant discussion, I will say I still believe my theory is correct, but that you were right about the head and body not being dumped at the same site at the same time.


    I am willing to bet that you will post some follow-up comment about my character. Just know that I will not respond to it. I SHOULD POINT OUT HERE THAT IF YOU DON'T POST A FOLLOW UP COMMENT ABOUT MY CHARACTER, YOU WILL HAVE PROVEN ME WRONG, SO CONSIDER THAT OPTION TOO.
    Bobit posted: »

    I can only state that there is a way of expressing politely any offered up opinions. Rather then patronizing and using flames to d

  • edited May 2014
    #Comment3

    I first said, the killer was, "Vivian, aided by Faith". Now I am thinking it was actually FAITH AIDED BY VIVIAN.

    Episode two is called, "Smoke and Mirrors." We know why the mirror is important, but why smoke?

    Well, many of us thought Vivian was the killer because she smoked, and a Huuf N Puff was found at the crime scene. Huff 'N' Puffs are sold at the Pudding 'N' Pie. Note that we don't know if Vivian actually smokes Huff and Puffs; we just know she smokes The same could be said for everyone else who smokes (minus Bigby). There is a lot of circumstantial evidence,but Vivian seems to lack a motive. I believe Faiths motive for killing Lily was defensive retaliation (see first post) or a well thought out plan for possibly knowing too much (see first post). See the link below for the brilliant theory about Vivian.

    www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/65690/stupid-girls-and-their-preposterous-schemes-my-theory

    Vivian isn't the only one who smokes. Nerissa smokes too (see the title screen of episode two), but I don't think she is the killer. THE TRIP TRAP ALSO SELLS HUFF N PUFFS (look at the cigarette machine before talking to Gren in episode one). The trip trap also gives out free matchbooks, and Bigby said he found one at Woody's at the very start of the game (ask Holly about the matchbook before you talk to Gren in episode one).

    Now... Faith smokes too, and she seems to know a lot about Bigby. See below.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=82fpIA9XTcY

    See 13:06 – 13:16 in the vid for how mch Faith seems to know about Bigby. Now, look at that same video from 12:35 - 12:41. It's very subtle, but Faith is looking for something in her purse right before she lights up (so we know smoking is on her mind). I think that she was looking for the matchbook that was found outside Woody's.I THINK THE MATCHBOOK IS FAITH'S, not Woody's. She can't find her matches, so she goes for her crap lighter. I think she may well have bought a pack of Huff 'N' Puffs at the Trip Trap, not at the strip club, and she was the one to leave a Huff and Puff behind at 207.

    I may be missing a scene that proves me wrong, but I don't even think Woody smokes. If you offer him a cigarette during interrogation he barely inhale, and he coughs. The brand he had were "Mammals", and I think those were Lily's cigarettes. If this is the case, it supports that those were Faith's matches that she dropped at his apartment.

    Why wouldn't Bigby mention she was smoking a Huff N Puff? He may have just been a gentleman (she'd just been beaten) Also, it may not have been a Huff and Puff she was smoking at that time. I theorize that she got the matches from Holly's bar and bought a pack of Huff and Puff there too. Her purse is never searched, and she may have deliberately not smoked one so as to not let Bigby know anything about herself. She knows he is the Sheriff; she calls him that without him ever have introduced himself as such.
  • Play episode one again. And listen to the whole conversation Snow has before talking to the mirror. Snow was shocked about how much Crane owned because it was for "massages".

    I think you're mixing up the girls at the pudding at pie with the Crooked Man and his many enterprises (one of which is the puddin

  • Just in case any of tht was towards me I just wanna say I was arguing or des putting anything I just wanted to clear up some facts which may have been confused tht is all. I. Think u r both entitled to ur own theories and think both r valid and interesting

    I concede Bobit and Mclovesth were right about the head and body being found at separate times.The fact that the head and body wer

  • She can't talk about work, she's there for work so it makes it easier to say "these lips are sealed" without hesitation. The second time was not about her specifically so the hesitation makes more sense. As far as knowing where Bigby lives, going into the business office you will see who lives in the building. As far as knowing Bigby has the smallest apartment, can't really explain it. I don't think he gets paid a lot for sheriffing plus I'm almost positive he does not pay for his glamour, that it's a condition for his role in Fabletown. And the way everyone seems to know things foreign to Bigby and Snow, there maybe some gossip going around. It's curious that she did say working was only temporary, just chalk it up to extorting Crane with that picture. I would assume anyone walking around with matches or a lighter smokes pretty regularly and considering the punishment fables can take and her profession, I would not be surprised if she had not been hurt before. She has to be tough.

    Comment2 Let's look at the only time we get to see Faith, and relate her words and actions back to what we now know. There are

  • do fables decompose the same way as humans though? When Bigby visited Lawrence, I believe he sniffed the gun and said it was not fired recently. He might have been there for days or longer, assuming of course it was the same gun. We never learned about the sticky pool of blood behind the nightstand in the apartment.

    I concede Bobit and Mclovesth were right about the head and body being found at separate times.The fact that the head and body wer

  • edited May 2014
    Thank you for your polite response. Understanding doesn't cost us psychically, unlike from a spoken accusation by not having a lack of empathy. I would also like to offer you, an apology for my contentious nature of which I am sorry for being offensive. Sincerely.

    I am guilty of throwing another angle in the mix with some tangible development to my suggestion. But doesn't make this suggestion correct. Or it in fact being my view of events, I am not under any real assumption yet, there is not quite enough information to close this case.

    I think that there are a few fables involved, although some are not entirely guilty. Meaning some are covering for others unknowingly, knowingly, also guilty of other linked crimes. I haven't ruled out all the other suspects. But likewise the most annoying thing currently, is as.agreed the Lack of faith's body. I have commented on this point profusely in many other posts. But there are other suspects to cross off any lists in order to really close this case completely. Then there is some other evidence linking more parties as possible involvement.

    Another mote point, saving Lawrence will bring a different animation into the second act, then not saving him?

    The English being a second language thing was me actually seeing if you spoke Spanish (as I do) so that maybe I could better under

  • edited May 2014
    Friendly warning, don't criticize Bobits posts, no matter how impossible to understand they sometimes are, or he'll get insulted and will indulge you in long, tedious and circular arguments, as you can see here on my example:

    www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/65690/stupid-girls-and-their-preposterous-schemes-my-theory/new

    The English being a second language thing was me actually seeing if you spoke Spanish (as I do) so that maybe I could better under

  • edited May 2014
    Yes, you're right, and I have learned that now. I've already apologized and he has accepted; so we have no need to speak anymore. When I said others have had trouble understanding and arguing with him, I was actually referring to your topic that you posted. I think he got the idea of accusing you of being a Spaniard from the fact that I speak Spanish (see above). I am no longer going to reply to any post of his.

    THOUGH ALL MEMBERS HAVE A RIGHT TO BE HEARD, THE RIGHT TO A RESPONSE IS A PRIVILEGE. IF REPLYING TO SOMEONE GUARANTEES A LONG, ATTACK FILLED, IRRELEVANT ARGUMENT, THAT PRIVILEGE OF A RESPONSE SHOULD, AND INDEED MUST, NOT BE GRANTED.

    Friendly warning, don't criticize Bobits posts, no matter how impossible to understand they sometimes are, or he'll get insulted a

  • edited May 2014
    If you save Lawrence, there is a whole new story in which he survives. If you don't save him, you still find out he is alive when you get there and get to hear his last words So, either way, Lawrence was not dead.when you go to his apartment.
    pcharl01 posted: »

    do fables decompose the same way as humans though? When Bigby visited Lawrence, I believe he sniffed the gun and said it was not

  • edited May 2014
    Funny how insecure that idiot Cuckoo is. He would actually take the time to make multiple accounts then rate himself for his every lack of comment, when providing absolutely nothing note, changing his view with every whim. Being incoherently inconsistent and absolutely inconclusive Then point to just how disturbed he actually is. Maybe he is just a child though and cannot be helped, or maybe he is Kim Jong Il. Being from one and the same stock as an egotistical tyrannical megalomaniac.Congrats we have our Hitler!

    The truth is there is no ID pings used on here, anybody can create many accounts.

    In reply to Lars you learned, What? That because you have a view you are undoubtedly correct in it, and must reply to every single point? There is no real insight into what is still an open story, because there is a lack of evidence to hand and still much of the game to be played to final completion, so any assumptions made are assumed, and what if they are wrong? Please continue basing your theories based on assumptions, when stating telltale games might just change an outcome because of you, make me laugh?

    A circular argument always takes two people. Yes I was wrong for being offensive. But no more so then somebody who patronises, furthering offering up completely the wrong information. Having an ego that they have been hijacked or that they are emphatically right. Offering a lack of evidence with a basis that is undeniably only a given assumption. The most troubling thing is when other evidence had been pointed at. How quickly you have dismissed it, when being proved wrong. Making a worded play that if specifically I had offered anything else I would be wrong to do so?

    The apology was a peace offering, but funny how an asshole will only make up their own rules when considering what is to be a relevant assumption.

    Friendly warning, don't criticize Bobits posts, no matter how impossible to understand they sometimes are, or he'll get insulted a

  • edited May 2014
    -

    Edit: Sorry for this post. I had originally said on this post (you can't delete them, as far as I know) that I was going to edit the whole thing because I am beginning to hedge my bets here on a few things. I've also found some other things that change this theory a little bit. I suppose I suffer from premature evaluation.

    I am trying to last longer before I shoot my mouth off with my updated theory. Once I analyze some big things I've discovered (very hard to notice, but very important), I will come and make a new post (instead of editing this one).

    Whether you agree with this theory or not, I am glad to have stimulated the minds of others and to have gotten many people excited about this awesome game. I also hope you're a fan of allegoric innuendos, as I am. Thanks!
  • edited May 2014
    Exactly. And not only because of ourselves, but for the overall sake of this forum we shouldn't feed the troll. I mean, how many more threads need to have an entire pages of stupid, circular arguments, which are also completely off-topic? I also realized way too late what I was getting into, I'm definitely not replying to him anymore, but unfortunately we pretty much butchered a girls thread already.

    By the way, if I understand his post correctly it seems that he believes that we are the same person with two different accounts. Is he actually that paranoid!?

    Yes, you're right, and I have learned that now. I've already apologized and he has accepted; so we have no need to speak anymore.

  • Then why was Dee at Faith's home if she wasn't missing to him? He thought she lost the photo in her own home?

    Comment1 "So was that incriminating photo of Crane the one we find in 207?" The photo most likely was the one in 207, that or t

  • Then why was Dee at Faith's home if she wasn't missing to him? He thought she lost the photo in her own home?

    Comment1 "So was that incriminating photo of Crane the one we find in 207?" The photo most likely was the one in 207, that or t

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