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People finally starting to wake up and accept that working on 4 games at once is hurting TWDSeason2?

posted by Clem_is_awesome BANNED on - last edited - Viewed by 36.6K users
"Third time's a charm" -- What i said a couple of days after beating episode 2. I was so happy knowing that we'll go to a camp, the PERFECT place to have tons of hubs and people to talk to. What made me even more hyped about going to the god damned camp? the fact that all the playable 400 days characters were confirmed in the game files. What did i get instead? Probably the most rushed episode in the history of TWD.

Now i'm seeing a lot of threads popping up with a good amount of thumbs up where people are actually agreeing that the episode felt super rushed and had very poor writing for what we expected.

Now let's talk about the biggest problems with this episode.

My biggest issue with this episode is Carver. From episode 1 we're being hyped about this super bad dude "Carver" going around killing LOTS of people we already know from the past(Roman and the scavengers at the river). Episode 2 trailer comes out and there we have Telltale hyping up this character again, played by Michael Madsen and also putting "Who is Carver?" in their Playing Dead vids and all. They even got Anadel to compose an insanely amazing track just named "Carver". On episode 2 we're told in some parts that Carver is a very intelligent man. We get descriptions like "Clementine and her group learn what it’s like to live under the heel of a leader whose intelligence is rivaled only by his propensity for brutal violence." and that leads us to believe that this guy is some genius mastermind with a really dark agenda that we'll get to see in episode 3. The episode comes out and it turns out he really isn't that smart and that the camp really isn't that safe. Then Carver dies and that's it. He had no character development in the episode. Even Bonnie and Troy had more lines and screen time than him. Super disappointed.

Second issue. 400 days characters. We play the 400 days DLC and we end up loving most of the characters. By the end of it we're left with this cliffhanger that we're going to some community. Tons of speculation and hype start building up as we find out Tavia's community might be Carver's community. SO MANY QUESTIONS START COMING UP. "How are we going to interact with the 400 days characters?" , "Was Tavia's community good from the start? did Carver eventually take over after some time?" ,"Becca will be older, how is she going to interact with Clem? "I can't wait to interact with all my favorite characters from 400 days!". All this twitter hype about "YOU NEED TO PLAY 400 DAYS" then the episode comes out and every single 400 days character has either 1 or 2 lines and they're all assholes now. It's very very unlikely that we'll see them again and i don't even wanna see them again to be honest.

Third problem. Some of the writing. There are tons of stuff left unexplained after Carver's death and it's stuff that will probably never be explained. We didn't know what happened to the people who got shot at the river and the ties they had with Carver. We never got to know who was George and why Alvin killed him. Rebecca's complete change of personality. We're being led to believe that the Cabin Group can't really be trusted and that they're hiding something. It turned out the Cabin Group didn't really have any skeletons in the closet and there really is no reason to believe there will be any more trust issues in episode 4 or 5 since most of the cabin group is dead now. Telltale made a big emphasis on this Luke vs Kenny thing that started in episode 2 but as of now there really is no way that anyone will pick Luke over Kenny after how bad Luke screwed up in episode 3. It's all a mess.

It's clear how this huge workload of working on 4 games at once and the constant switch of writers, directors and designers between all games is hurting season 2's quality. The 90 minute per episode formula just doesn't work for this game.

Don't get me wrong, episode 3 was great by itself but i don't like settling down for something like this knowing that Telltale can do better and has done better in the past with season 1. All i can hope now is that Telltale gets a reality check some day and they go back to working only on Season 3.
  • I completely agree !

    The last episode was amazing, but it felt way too compressed.
    Resolving the entire camp and Carver storyarc in a single episode was a bit disappointing.
  • Most of what I want to say has already been said. To be clear, I am enjoying this season so far - it's been very entertaining - but I feel like I'm watching a good movie, not playing a great game. I'm on the edge of my seat, I'm wishing that there was more, and I'm enjoying what I'm seeing, but I'm not at all as gripped as I was in s1.

    I find the whole 400 Days stuff to be a non-starter. I played that to just tide me over from s1 to s2 - I didn't expect there to be any meaningful impact on the game. Bonnie's story from 400 days was by far the best-written of the group, so I'm glad she has more presence in s2.

    The problem for me is the NPCs. The relationships with them aren't at all fleshed out, so these characters just sort of exist in the background. Maybe it's a narrative decision, that Clem is mature and distant, and as a result, she doesn't form any meaningful relationships anymore, and that's fine, but the writers need to understand that just because Clem doesn't want to care about them doesn't mean that the player doesn't want to care about them. How can their deaths have any emotional impact if you don't let us, the player, understand more about them? In my episode 2, Alvin died. I ended up not giving a crap one way or the other. When Carlos died in 3, I found myself thinking "Oh well, whatever." How many conversations did we actually end up having with Carlos anyway? He and Clem had zero relationship whatsoever, so his death had zero emotional impact on me.

    We didn't really have any option for having choice-based conversations with people in this episode. The only "hub" section of the game doesn't actually allow you to talk to anyone - nobody wants to talk and you're supposed to just run around looking for things. This is a big problem, because in season 1, character relationships were almost exclusively forged during player-controlled conversations. Lots of development happens in cutscenes, but the interactivity allowed you to forge relationships on your own, and you could stop talking to them whenever you wanted. That agency meant a lot to players, and that agency has been all but stripped away in season 2. Meanwhile, in the conversation with Carver in the office, he's telling me that I'm like him, but the problem is that that isn't how I played either season 1 or season 2 to this point, so it just felt really jarring and inconsistent. It felt like the game was trying to ignore the choices I had made to that point and to shoehorn me in with how they wanted me to play it. Either that, or it was a pointless red herring, but the game spent too much time focusing on that, especially as Kenny was about to beat him to death, that it just didn't make sense to me. I didn't stick around to watch the beating because that isn't how I played the game and if I'm maintaining any control over Clem's personality, I'm not making her that cold.

    When everything is fast-paced and tense, nothing is fast-paced and tense. Context and perspective really do matter, and season 1 had it in spades. This season really hasn't given you a chance to catch your breath, and that's not a compliment - it feels like it's rushing you from one tense sequence to the next (lodge meeting excepted). Season 1 had much better pacing and allowed for proper contextualizing of events over each episode.

    At the beginning of this episode, I didn't know if I was supposed to trust Luke, Nick, Rebecca and Carlos, but the bigger problem was that I didn't care. Telltale, please give me a reason to care about the NPCs in this game. My entire investment in season 1 was because of the amazing job done on the NPCs, and it's just lacking now. You're not a movie studio, so please don't try to make a movie. Give me some meaningful interactivity with NPCs. That's what I'm asking for, and you haven't given it to me to any meaningful degree this season.
  • The only ones at blame is us, the TWD community. Let's be honest, there were dozens of threads that all had the same topic: The waits between episodes been too long, Telltale abandoning us, Telltale not caring about the community, etc. And they responded... with episode 3.

    There you have it folks, it's our own fault for rushing Telltale.
    • I think you overestimate by an enormous margin how much Telltale cares about what we say on this forum. You don't think they have all the episodes pretty much planned out? Because they probably do and won't change huge things because we say so.
    • There have been numerous complaints about season two since the beginning. It didn't just start with episode three, and many of the sudden changes in episode three seem to be the result of telltale trying to fix problems that a lot of players were already having with the game. A lot of those problems have already been talked about here, and it seems that a good portion of players agree that these problems exist and are hurting the game to different extents for different players.
  • this season sucks a big major dick
  • Great topic and I largely agree with the OP. This is something I had been worried about even before season two started, what with the reveal of Borderlands and GOT to the mix I naturally started wondering about the end product we'd be getting when season two arrived. Episode one I already started to feel a shift in pacing, when Clem arrived at the cabin I thought that like season one we would get to wander around the place and get to know the new group more, flesh them out a little, get to roleplay that little bit more...but we didn't and I felt the seeds were sown with what I had already feared.

    Anyway cut to now and I have to say that for me, the complete lack of depth to the current group we're with is startling with the exception of Kenny. Sarah is annoying to me, yes I know she's been sheltered, but I know nothing more about her other than her naivety, Carlos is over bearing and condescending to Clem at times because she's a child, Luke as of the last episode to me was an idiot, he wants to be such a pal to Clem but I know next to nothing else about him. Anyway the point I'm making is that despite these character issues I have, I could embrace them scars and all if I knew more about them, but I don't, they have paper thin depth because I don't get to talk to them, when I try it's usually one sentence I get and Clem automatically walks away.

    They feel like walking plot devices to me to merely push the narrative at a breakneck pace and as a consequence the so called hard choices I've to make are not hard. I don't care that Alvin tried to hold them off in a last hurrah, I don't care that Carlos got took down in the herd, I don't care that Reggie got killed that quickly, I didn't really care that Pete stayed behind, and all because I just don't get to know them, to get their views on things, to empathize with where they came from and how they feel, to bond with them on anything, they're like strangers to me even going into episode four.

    As a result I've played Clem as what some would consider cold and abrasive, but why wouldn't I? Why would I sit with Luke instead of Kenny? Why would I hug Luke? Why would I say these people were my friends when they aren't? Season one succeeded so well because we had these moments to talk over things with each character, we had a little down time per episode to get their slant on things and build our own relationship with them, the plot didn't always have to move at a hundred miles per hour and it created a palpable tension when the shit did hit the fan, it made it tougher, it made it more personal.

    There was one sequence in episode three that summed up the complete linearity of season two for me, it's when Clem had to carry a bucket down to Kenny and Mike I think, I had control of Clem and I realized all I could do was walk in a straight line down towards the camera for about ten seconds before it took control again and I remember saying to myself " wow I suppose that was the gameplay quota filled, thanks" or the time when the group was looking for Pete's body, the player is made to walk in a straight line to find it rather than letting the player search more thoroughly throughout the wooded area, maybe talk to the others while doing so.

    I could go on and on with such examples but ultimately the end product does feel like it lacks substance, are we enjoying it while we can? yes, I love playing as Clem, but the utter lack of depth to a lot of it is becoming more glaringly obvious per episode. Give us hubs Telltale, let us get to know these characters you've created, and maybe next time one them dies I'll actually care, because as of now my Clem is going to be a loner, not out of choice, but for the complete lack of anyone to care about. Oh and for the record of course I enjoyed watching Carver get his face caved in, he was a one dimensional psychopath...again, zero depth.
    • Yeah, I agree. Would you mind dividing your text into paragraphs? Wall of texts are more digestible that way, and people will better understand what you are saying. :)

      Now I...

      > I didn't really care that Pete stayed behind

      ...dayum, that's cold.

      I'll say it once and I'll say it again: "Connecting with people is so important"- Walter

      There is wisdom in those words. Not everyone will like you, and you will not like everyone, but at least you got to know them and feel strongly about them one way or the other.
    • Looks like you are new here, Sykopatik. Welcome to the forum.

      Phew, that was a long post, but, very well thought out. I agree with you. This season has been lacking a lot in character depth compared to season 1, which is a shame. I hope they can at least make up for it in the last 2 episodes and into season 3 (if there will be one).
      • Thanks guys, yeah sorry about the lack of paragraphs but I'm typing from a chatpad and I couldn't space it up on this. I'll edit it on pc tomorrow. Yeah my Pete thing is cold I know but again, didn't know him that well, I knew he wouldn't make it anyway even before he said it. I did like him in the short time he was around though, guess I'm roleplaying Clem to just be a survivor haha. I think many fans on the forum here think we're shitting on the season for the sake of it, but we're not, I see great points here, and we're only pointing out it's flaws because we love this series so much. Hopefully even if not this season, they take on board some of these points for the future.
  • To all the people supporting and adding their thoughts in this thread. I fucking love every single one of you.
  • I agree with this almost completely.

    Just think about the fact that Clem knows the cabin group for only 7 - 9 days now. That's 1 WEEK. And we, the gamer, know them for only like 2-4 days of play time, since the 5 day long trip to the bridge was skipped. The only character we really had time to build up some kind of empathy for was Rebecca, and maybe Sarah in EP 3. It's a shame Alvin and Carlos are dead, I feel like I knew nothing about them other than that Carlos was overprotective and Alvin killed some guy called George. I saved Alvin in EP 2, so at least he went out like a badass for me, but Carlos? All I could say was "Oh... so that's why Sarah screamed in the Trailer...".
    Saving Nick feels like a joke. I agree that he has 2 good lines in EP 3, but the only thing he did after that was repeating what Luke said.
    And if Nick dies in EP 2 Luke says NOTHING about it. Seriously? Best friendship ever. Being able to move on is one thing, but this is a bit too extreme, man. "Please keep an eye out for Nick, I'm worried about him ..." Yeah, sure.

    Nonetheless I liked the episode. I like the story, but it's completely rushed. There is so much more TTG could do with this game, especially with its new characters! The character development feels blunt at some points and especially Rebecca did a 180° turn that you can't even justify with her pregnancy.
    If only they would invest more time in Season 2. :(
  • I ain't letting this leave. :)
  • and yet we will keep playing it. I dont understand it either, i wished they would have stopped after season 1 and took a break from TWD to finish their other projects first, but this is just fucked. Im still hoping that the 400days characters will appear in future episodes. I dont think its that unlikely, considering the camp probably being overrun so that they had to ecape aswell. But the fuck do i know, i also thought they actually had a well written villain with carver.
    • I would guess that the only 400 days character we'll see will obviously be Bonnie, which makes sense as she's the only one that always goes with Octavia in 400 days, should have seen it coming I suppose.
  • Looking over everything that has happened so far, it seems pretty obvious that this season has definitely been streamlined. After making over 25 million dollars off Season 1, you would think that Telltale would've used some of that money to make their games better. Instead it really feels like these games are regressing in quality.

    The disappearance of hubs, character development, puzzles, and the overall ability to interact with other characters and the environment as a whole are really hurting the quality of this season. Everything just feels so rushed that its almost forced. Clem moves from location to location without ever really building as a character or forming any kind of attachment to members of the group. When characters like Carlos or Alvin died, it honestly felt flat. The deaths in this season just aren't nearly as dramatic as the one's in Season 1. Honestly, it is hard to get attached to these people when we have barely had any time to interact or learn anything about any of these guys.

    I still enjoy Season 2 and find it entertaining, but I'm disappointed with the direction Telltale is headed in. As one reviewer put it, "In comparison to Season 1, Season 2 feels like a B movie knock-off riding off its predecessors success". As a whole, the series is feeling more and more like a movie and less and less like an actual game.
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