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People finally starting to wake up and accept that working on 4 games at once is hurting TWDSeason2?

posted by Clem_is_awesome BANNED on - last edited - Viewed by 37.3K users
"Third time's a charm" -- What i said a couple of days after beating episode 2. I was so happy knowing that we'll go to a camp, the PERFECT place to have tons of hubs and people to talk to. What made me even more hyped about going to the god damned camp? the fact that all the playable 400 days characters were confirmed in the game files. What did i get instead? Probably the most rushed episode in the history of TWD.

Now i'm seeing a lot of threads popping up with a good amount of thumbs up where people are actually agreeing that the episode felt super rushed and had very poor writing for what we expected.

Now let's talk about the biggest problems with this episode.

My biggest issue with this episode is Carver. From episode 1 we're being hyped about this super bad dude "Carver" going around killing LOTS of people we already know from the past(Roman and the scavengers at the river). Episode 2 trailer comes out and there we have Telltale hyping up this character again, played by Michael Madsen and also putting "Who is Carver?" in their Playing Dead vids and all. They even got Anadel to compose an insanely amazing track just named "Carver". On episode 2 we're told in some parts that Carver is a very intelligent man. We get descriptions like "Clementine and her group learn what it’s like to live under the heel of a leader whose intelligence is rivaled only by his propensity for brutal violence." and that leads us to believe that this guy is some genius mastermind with a really dark agenda that we'll get to see in episode 3. The episode comes out and it turns out he really isn't that smart and that the camp really isn't that safe. Then Carver dies and that's it. He had no character development in the episode. Even Bonnie and Troy had more lines and screen time than him. Super disappointed.

Second issue. 400 days characters. We play the 400 days DLC and we end up loving most of the characters. By the end of it we're left with this cliffhanger that we're going to some community. Tons of speculation and hype start building up as we find out Tavia's community might be Carver's community. SO MANY QUESTIONS START COMING UP. "How are we going to interact with the 400 days characters?" , "Was Tavia's community good from the start? did Carver eventually take over after some time?" ,"Becca will be older, how is she going to interact with Clem? "I can't wait to interact with all my favorite characters from 400 days!". All this twitter hype about "YOU NEED TO PLAY 400 DAYS" then the episode comes out and every single 400 days character has either 1 or 2 lines and they're all assholes now. It's very very unlikely that we'll see them again and i don't even wanna see them again to be honest.

Third problem. Some of the writing. There are tons of stuff left unexplained after Carver's death and it's stuff that will probably never be explained. We didn't know what happened to the people who got shot at the river and the ties they had with Carver. We never got to know who was George and why Alvin killed him. Rebecca's complete change of personality. We're being led to believe that the Cabin Group can't really be trusted and that they're hiding something. It turned out the Cabin Group didn't really have any skeletons in the closet and there really is no reason to believe there will be any more trust issues in episode 4 or 5 since most of the cabin group is dead now. Telltale made a big emphasis on this Luke vs Kenny thing that started in episode 2 but as of now there really is no way that anyone will pick Luke over Kenny after how bad Luke screwed up in episode 3. It's all a mess.

It's clear how this huge workload of working on 4 games at once and the constant switch of writers, directors and designers between all games is hurting season 2's quality. The 90 minute per episode formula just doesn't work for this game.

Don't get me wrong, episode 3 was great by itself but i don't like settling down for something like this knowing that Telltale can do better and has done better in the past with season 1. All i can hope now is that Telltale gets a reality check some day and they go back to working only on Season 3.
  • I agree! While I still like season 2 and some new characters (Luke, Nick...) I feel like Telltales just does not know how to give EVERY character a moment to shine and show just how important they are. They did that great for season one, but season two is a bit more unpersonal. Season 2 has great potential and while I like the style and atmosphere... I feel like they could have made much more of it. The fact that all the episodes are shorter is a reason as well, all the 'hubs' and 'personal talks' almost aren't there anymore. However, we still have two episodes to go and I hope that we will know more about the 'new' characters and their past, as well as their morals and such - before this season is over. Telltales is doing a good job, but they need to show us just how important every character is and there need to be more difficult choices this season as well.

    However, I do not give up hope yet and hope for a great season ending with the last two episodes :)
  • "Crazy day of Walking Dead, Thrones, Borderlands and one other thing I can't talk about. This is just an amazing time at Telltale." @kevbru

    Lol and people say "BUT THEY ARENT WORKING ON 4 GAMES"

    They seem to have picked a new project too. Yaaaaaay i cant wait for my watered down 90 minutes episodes.
  • I haven't read most of the comments other than OP on this thread so sorry if I am rehashing what others have already said but I need to rant. OK so normally I am super excited anxious and emotional while playing these episodes but playing thru this one the most common thought I had was "OK this is when it gets awesome" but then most of the time it just kinda didn't. It left me feeling confused and underwhelmed.

    Carver was a good villain but at this point he feels like wasted potential, all that build up made it underwhelming for him to turn out so one-dimensionally evil. It could have been an interesting moral dilemma to have the opportunity to see his views proven right in some way or for something to happen to make you question your morals and then you would have an actual reason to agree with his philosophy, which would make the whole morals vs survival theme that ep4 seems to emphasize that much more difficult. But instead it was just Carver is EVIL EVIL EVIL. His evilness was just so clear cut it just automatically pushes you to be like no! you are a psycho and I disagree! Whether or not watching his death proves him right was an interesting question but it just feels like they could have given that decision more context and weight instead of being like "well I really hate you cuz you are evil so I want to watch you die". I mean that is interesting too I guess but it should have felt like more of a turning point in Clem's philosophy instead of just being like "she is desensitized to violence now." idk

    Meanwhile it's like Christa & Wellington don't even exist, I mean I understand why no one is really talking about it but it feels like we should have had some kind of reminder that she is still out there and that maybe we should be trying to head there (or not). In ep2 it felt like such a huge deal with the Luke or Kenny choice and the arguing about Wellington, but that was just abandoned too. There is no longer any tension about who to trust and who to side with when it was specifically built up in the previous episodes. Instead the focus is "MY NAME IS KENNY AGHGH I AM EXCITABLE WE MUST GET OUT SO HELP ME CLEM YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN"

    Why did the whole "do I trust the cabin group or not" issue disappear? why did Carver say that mysterious stuff about Luke, and who on earth was this George character who Alvin supposedly killed? I guess now we will never know?! And what about Kenny's mental state? For a while there it seemed like they were going for an interesting angle with the whole "maybe he's crazy from losing his family so maybe u shouldn't trust him either'. but then he goes right back to being his S1 self, dialed up to 100. On one hand i liked how Kenny was so Kenny- protective yet manipulative, hotheaded yet loyal. There were some great moments with that. But now thinking about it, that's pretty much exactly who he was in S1 so what's the point? In the end it felt like too much too soon, why are you being so heroic? It was great at the moment but if that's where his arc is going it feels way too early, like where are we going to go with his character now? In the preview he was so nice! I mean that's cool for Clem but not very exciting lol.

    TLDR i felt like the episode abandoned stuff that it was building up to and the characterization was weird & it felt out of place. Determinant characters might as well not exist. Everything that everyone was hyped about was not even addressed in the episode. That might be a stupid complaint but isn't that the exact point of the episodic format?

    edit for paragraphs
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    Blind Sniper Moderator
    [In case it needs to be said, I'm only a volunteer moderator. I am not from Telltale and my opinions are my own.]

    As a result of Telltale’s growth spurt from the success of Walking Dead: Season 1 in 2012, it seems that Telltale is at a crossroads in how they utilize player interaction and story pacing to create compelling interactions for players in their games – not only in the transition from their classic titles to Walking Dead: Season 1, but from Season 1 onto their newer titles. It is obvious that as a result of Walking Dead, Telltale looks towards the narrative/thematic presentation and “tailored story” gameplay mechanics of Walking Dead as their new template – not only as a testament to the game’s accessibility and mainstream success, but as Telltale’s signature now that they have established an identity for themselves with new and unique gameplay. Ideally for future titles, the tailored choice system would be the backbone of their games from here on out, whereas each franchise would ideally get its own unique additions to gameplay based on what fits the source material –be it puzzles or otherwise.

    However, after Telltale has updated their tailored-narrative gameplay from Season 1 onto their future titles, it seems that Telltale has misinterpreted Season 1’s success as solely a result of the game’s cinematic presentation and choice making, and as a result, have underestimated how much of an impact other forms of interactivity had on the success of the game. Instead of embracing the other interactive elements from Season 1 which coexisted to help and strengthen the player’s immersion in the narrative, Telltale has either streamlined or abandoned any interactive element beyond the dialogue choice selection in order to place all of their focus onto cinematic presentation with break-neck pacing. Fans introduced to Telltale through Walking Dead articulate this as Telltale removing hub areas and light puzzles, whereas older Telltale fans articulate this as Telltale removing puzzles/interactivity in general.

    In typical literature, good writers aim to “show, not tell.” However, in interactive media, people have the added benefit of being able to “show” and “tell.”

    From a perspective of “showing and telling,” Walking Dead Season 1 and Telltale’s older titles both had the benefit of “showing” through the game’s interactive elements and “telling” through the stories. However, with Season 2, later episodes of Wolf, and what I presume will be other upcoming games for the foreseeable future, it seems that Telltale is only relying on “telling” stories, and as a result, misses out on all the benefits that “showing” through player interactions has outside of player choice selection. Telltale’s writing has greatly leapt from its already high quality from their earlier days, but it feels as if they are underestimating the incredible potential that other interactive elements outside of player choices have in storytelling.
    • You know, I could kiss you right now...
    • Brilliant. Absolutely well said.
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      Vainamoinen Moderator
      You're a hell of a mod, Sniper, all stuff good and true.

      I'm not putting all that in a 'show and tell' paradigm, because both verbs belong to the storyteller's repertoire and are not among the player's possible actions. But the storytelling focus now clearly erases interactive elements left and right, and that simply doesn't need to happen. After Season 1, Jake had strongly contested the notion that Telltale's direction would be that of the "visual novel", and he had quite some arguments up his sleeve for that. With Season 2 - and that applies to TWaU as well - we see a further approximation to that kind of media, so much in fact that we could identify the visual novel as the ideal form of Telltale's "episodic story game" idea. It factually isn't the same thing, but the more streamlined it gets, the less pacing remains in the hands of the player, the more similar it will turn out to be.
    • One of the most badass comments I've read this morning. This is exactly what's going on.
    • I agree with all your points but in terms of gameplay being new and unique the gameplay was a complete rip off of Heavy Rain Timed dialogue , Multiple dialogue choices , Decision changing story, QTE's, Interact with everything even meaningless objects etc, Puzzles and Cinematic etc

      Even though one of my favorite games of all time find it annoying everytime hear telltale saying how they reinvented the wheel in terms of point and clicks gameplay credit where credit is due

      Heavy rain release 11 February 2010

      The Walking Dead S1 April 24, 2012
    • Though I admire the alacrity of your post, I disagree that TTG has somehow 'misinterpreted" TWD Season 1's success as "solely the result of the game's cinematic presentation and choice making" and that "Telltale is only relying on “telling” stories, and as a result, misses out on all the benefits that “showing” through player interactions has outside of player choice selection". First, it seems much more deliberate and canny considering the emphasis we now see in current titles, as well as the fact that puzzles and interactivity were a major part of what TTG *used* to be about.

      Second, I think there's an issue of equivocation with the word "show", because when writers show they do so by stimulating the imagination extremely well, but this is a video game where everything that can be shown is, visually - not visualized. And even though the core elements are still there, though scant, the progress and development of the narrative remains crucial, and doesn't necessarily need to rely on immersion like an open-world RPG, even if it shares some semblance of that genre. I'm not saying it's not immersive at all, either, it's just that the process is being done differently in order to distinguish themselves and the genre that TTG has taken on.

      So, instead of caring about a character because you believe you're like them in real life, you're asked to care about a character who, even though they're not necessarily like you, is *as if they were you* in another world. You could say the 'direction' of feeling is changed, if that makes more sense. To elaborate, it's not just an "if I were you" scenario. It's very different because you're selecting the choices for someone who is essentially their own person with an affected history (thanks to Lee, also tailored by you) in order to drive the story forward.

      Anyway, there's still potential, as you say, for other interactive elements outside of player choices to have in storytelling, but how those can be integrated may actually be better suited to other titles - specifically Tales from the Borderlands and their proverbial vaults.
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        Blind Sniper Moderator
        [In case it needs to be said, I'm only a volunteer moderator. I am not from Telltale and my opinions are my own.]

        Although I may have phrased my post poorly, I actually do greatly advocate their new direction in concept. It's more so that I feel Telltale can go much further with their distinctive and innovative interpretation of adventure games than simply choices/QTEs, and that Telltale has a large repertoire of interactive elements from their classic games that they can retool to create equally potent and immersive interactions with their narratives that don't just have to be "tedious busy work" and can still be accessible to a mainstream audience.

        it's more so while Telltale makes choice making and role playing the backbone of the game, that I hope they will manage to create unique interactive elements for a franchise beyond Quick Time Events. I've tried to focus on using "interactive elements" over "gameplay" as I do not believe Telltale needs to dip into traditional gameplay for their new style of narrative. However, I think Telltale underestimates how other forms of interaction can assist players in immersion without alienating casual players. For instance, in Wolf Among Us, I adore how the choice making is executed, but I feel that the game would benefit from some "detective" gameplay outside of clicking hotspots in hub areas. It doesn't have to be arbitrary puzzles, but I feel that an ideal Telltale experience from my perspective would make use of more tools than just QTEs and clicking on hotspots to make the narrative immersive.

        Telltale's previews released for Tales from the Borderlands seem to indicate that Telltale is trying out some new interactive elements for "gunplay" from the Borderlands franchise - which of course I do not expect nor want to be full fledged Borderlands gameplay, but you know what I mean - so perhaps my point may be moot if only Wolf and Dead Season 2 rely solely on QTEs and dialogue choices as the only tools in their library to immerse players in their choice making and tailored narrative. (In case I didn't clarify; as I implied earlier, I do like the dialogue choices and am not looking down on them. Rather, it's that Telltale has heavy potential to have dialogue choices coexist with other interactive elements that do not have to serve as traditional gameplay elements.)
        • Agree with TWAU taught I was only one who felt way. It was the only disappointing thing about TWAU for me even though it's great game bit of detective work in point and click adventure game is essential to me.
    • I had starry anime eyes while reading this.
    • Put this in the wrong place. (that sounded wrong) IGNORE
  • Them working on 4 games at a time has nothing to do with how good an episode is. It depends on who's writing the story episode. Obviously someone kind of messed up on season 200. There are plenty of unanswered questions like:

    If Carlos and the Cabin didn't have much trust in Clem in 201; then why the hell would they have trust in her in 202? It would have made sense to at least have the cabin group question her and prove she's worthy of the group. They assumed she worked with Bill so why didn't they question her and make her do tasks to prove she's not with Carver? Episode 203 could have been when they met Carver.

    Who shot the people near the river, and was giving Victor the water even necessary?

    Why did Victor have Clem's backpack, and does that mean Christa's alive?

    Why would Carver say the cabin group are bad people and Clem shouldn't trust them when he was the bad guy?

    Why would Tell Tale say our decisions from 400 days effects 203 when the only choices from 400 days that was effected was who came with Tavia?

    Will we see the 400 days characters who left with Tavia again?

    What did Jane mean when she told Clem everyone will die, don't go down with them?''

    Why would Tell Tale make Sarah look like Ugly Betty?

    Why would Tell Tale hype up Reggie's character when they knew he was going to die and pretty useless?

    What the hell did Omid and Krista teach Clem that made her so tough and sassy?

    Will we ever see brother Nate again?

    Do you think Clementine killing people was Lee's fault? Lee told her that killing is bad and she should never do it. Clem seemed to have no problem with Kenny killing Bill at all. This is the result of Clem seeing people kill each other, Kenny killing Larry, basically everything Clem witnessed in 100 effected her. Lee also told Clem the St. John's were bad people and how he killed the Senator.

    What will happen in 204?

    Was Sarah about to have en emo moment during her picking berries task? She was looking at the scissors like she wanted to hurt herself or someone.

    Was Carver really a bad guy, or a person who just wanted strong people in his community?

    Why was Troy such a dick?

    How the hell did Luke get into the facility without being seen?

    Were did Luke run off to now, and can he be trusted?

    Where was Kenny when Sarita got bit? All he was thinking about was revenge on Carver. Sarita couldn't have got bit if Kenny just listened to her and walked by her side. That's why Kajaa and Duck died. His loved one's always told him not to start trouble or do stupid things, but he didn't listen.

    Juila Farmer's (Sarita) scream scared me what about you?

    Will Sarita leave Kenny if she lives?

    Who will be Clem's gaurdian? Mike, Kenny, Luke, Sarita, Bonnie, or Jane?

    There are more questions, but these are to name a few. I like this season anyway :)
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    billwilliams BANNED
    agree with everything you said. especially with carver and 400 days group. HUGE POTENTIAL WASTED
  • I wanted to talk to people. IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK FOR?!
  • Ya know, after playing season 1, I knew Telltale was going to have a tough task on its hands by making season 2 better. The first season was so popular that it would be hard to beat.
  • Yeah Season 2 is no where near as good as Season 1. The characters are a lot more boring and the choices seem to matter less. However I did like this episode. From what I hear the 400 days crew didn't matter either way though TellTell said they would. I couldn't get them to join Tavia and didn't bother going back and getting them to. I do regret not teaching Sarah survival skills though. I am not ready to write off season 2 just yet but it does need stronger characters next episode. I really like Sarah, Bonnie, Carlos, Nick, Kenny and Luke. Could care less about Sarita, Rebecca, Alivin and these other guys and go to hell. I left Alvin to die already. I have a feeling Kenny will die soon and at the end of the season if you make the right choices it will basically be down to Sarah and Clementine. That is what I am expecting to happen anyway. .
  • Tbh I was awake after episode 1 was finished and always expressed my honest opinion on the issue no matter what general reaction was.
    They needed 100,000 sells to break even and sold over 21 million in s1 which means they could of expanded every feature to massive extent but no they got selfish and made cheap game with no gameplay and supposely for story branches all illusion of choice.

    The only reason there not making it much better is because if they upgrade the game to much it won't work among all platforms reducing their market to sell to they had a chose make a gaming history defining game or maintain guaranteed maximum profit not worrying about quality of product. The last of us sold 6 million units that was game of the year also bioshock Infinite(4m) and their games cost millions to make and didn't even sell a 1/4 as much with a small market so not AAA title won't cut it for me.

    They are making more money on each game then any other big company so for loss of quality there's no excuse.
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