Sending Non-human-looking Fables to the Farm

edited June 2014 in The Wolf Among Us

Call me a grump, but it doesn't seem like a lot of players take the glamour rule very seriously. In the "why didn't the majority...?" thread, most players seem to have let Colin and Toad walk around in the middle of New York, throwing caution to the wind and risking the exposure of all fables, not to mention flaunting a rule that has been enforced for everyone for centuries, mostly because:

1: Colin and Toad are cool! Don't wanna disappoint them, nu-uh. Who cares if Fabletown caves in on itself, anyway?

2: Snow is such a big meanie, asking us to do our jobs! That's what you get for not bagging your love interest before she gets promoted. She gets all uppity, no time for dithering or sexual tension anymore.

3: Making people do stuff they don't want to is obviously wrong! Always. Yup. Well, except for making your kids brush their teeth and go to school, of course. And putting dangerous people in prison if they're realistically and provably a threat to society. Those are okay, as long as you're not being a dick about it. What does that have to do with anything?

All this is ignoring that letting Colin stay means confining him to Bigby's tiny apartment, that Toad is risking not only himself and his son but also Fabletown in its entirety because he's too cheap to spend the money, that Toad Jr. is growing up surrounded by children he has absolutely nothing in common with because his father is too proud to live among other non-human-looking fables and that the farm itself is a perfectly pleasant place to live.

Fabletown isn't populated by safe, lofty, post-modern moralists like us, it's populated by freaks and misfits from dangerous, brutal worlds who have been through hell and are trying to make comfortable lives for themselves without drawing the attention of the billions of people who would want to dissect and study or just straight out eliminate them given the chance, not to mention the hundreds of worlds beyond ruled by an empire that just wants them dead.

Unlike us, they can't afford to be sloppy, or cut corners, or respect everybody's rights all the time regardless of the cost to the community, and to ignore that is to disrespect the setting and the struggles of the characters because we can't be bothered to immerse ourselves and instead pretend that their lives are like ours so they should obviously be held to the same standards we are.

Maybe I'm just sore that nobody seems to agree with me, but it feels like a waste that players dismiss the de-facto most controversial issue in the game and a significant element of the setting as black and white just because they don't want their Bigby to disappoint his friends and don't like taking orders.

Am I making any sense?

Edit: I'd very much like it if people who vote "Dislike" at any particular comment also take the time to write why they disagree in a comment of their own. The voting system is nifty for finding out how popular your opinions are, but articulated arguments are more helpful and constructive in a discussion, both for organizing your own thoughts on the subject and for allowing your ideas to challenge others and be challenged in return.

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Comments

  • Maybe you have to be a comic reader to really sympathize but the nonhuman fables really do see the Farm as a prison. They have to stay on this relatively small area for eternity while the human Fables can go anywhere in the world they please, and like it says in the Book of Fables, all the positions of power are held by humans. They feel subjugated because of the way they look and glamours are so expensive that people like Gren live in poverty to afford them or buy black market. It's not hard to understand why Colin or Toad are resentful and try to get away with what they can. In the end, they will have to go but in the short term while Bigby is trying to solve this case, they are fine. I gave Toad money, hopefully he will use it the way he is supposed to, and Colin is safe in Bigby's place.

  • edited May 2014

    Yes, and that's sad and unfortunate and it'd be great if there was a better solution, but there isn't. Every single time Toad walks outside without his glamour on he's risking everything, and if Colin can't stand being confined to the farm then how is confining him to Bigby's apartment an improvement?

    Moreover, enabling Colin aggravates the situation by causing even more resentment among all the animal fables who aren't best buddies with Bigby and can't just ask him to fund their glamours because he broke their stuff, or let them crash at his place for old time's sake. By flaunting the rules he as Sheriff is specifically supposed to enforce, Bigby also sets a terrible precedent that risks throwing Fabletown into anarchy, a development that they simply wouldn't survive.

    Ultimately, the animal fables being bored and feeling trapped on their big, comfortable farm away from a civilization they wouldn't be able to adapt to anyway shouldn't be more important than protecting all fables everywhere. It's a shame, but being wishy-washy about it and slap-dashing with the rules can get everyone killed. It might be a bit hard to keep in perspective because there's no obvious real-world issues that it reflects, but those are the facts of the situation.

  • As for toad , i gave him crane's money and told him to get a glamour so this is helping and not breaking rules
    As for colin... Well fuck the rules , he's bigby's friend and i'll break hundreds of rules for him if i have to

  • edited May 2014

    Apparently so. You're certainly risking hundreds of lives in order to let him crash at Bigby's apartment a little longer. Cheers for friendship.

  • idk how Colin would make the money to afford a glamour, he says hes broke and he cant work

  • I think it's more about wanting to change how things work, and make sure the rest can actually get glamours instead of being charged too much for them.

  • edited May 2014

    he has no thumbs anyways

  • Toad preferred a car over his and his son's life. Going the safety route Nerissa said, Toad should go to the Farm. Colin on the other hand never gets to the Farm and escapes from the truck. I hope that they'll have a "In line with the comics" achievement to grasp.

  • edited May 2014

    But that's just it, there's no way to mass-produce glamours. The magic involved is too hard and time-consuming to weave, and the components are too rare and valuable, which is why they have to be so expensive. Nobody is hoarding them, there just aren't enough witches and ingredients available to provide everybody with glamours. It's not because of a rotten system or anybody's greed, it's just physically and logistically impossible. Letting non-glamoured fables run around in public doesn't help anything, and the only way it changes things is by causing problems and risking the community as a whole.

  • The reason glamours are expensive is perfectly mentioned by Off_Ground. The reasons for non-human fables not liking the Farm is because of the size where they can live and the fact they can't leave. The reason for the size is of the cost for warding off mundies through a spell, and the spell has to be cast from the Fabletown Funds, which are supplied by Bluebeard.

  • I don't think it's gotten to anarchy yet. I think the reason they're not forcing the issue because Toad and Colin haven't left Fabletown . If they left the neighborhood, it might be more cause for concern. Also, Toad has businesses and a child, tied that make it a bit harder for him to just pick up and leave. Even so, Bigby did say that the next time he caught Toad without his glamour he would be sent away immediately. I think and hope Toad knows this is his last chance. As for Colin this is a it of book knowledge but whenever he escapes, he's shipped back. Until they can find a way to keep him from escaping, I don't know what else they can do.

  • edited June 2014

    But it will. What do you call it when the only law-enforcer in town doesn't follow the basic rules simply because he doesn't feel like it? By letting Toad off all the time and not sending Colin back to the farm as quickly as possible upon finding him in his apartment, he's basically signalling that Fabletown law is theoretical and you only have to follow it if it's convenient or if the Sheriff doesn't like you. And the same goes for rewarding Colin, or more specifically not punishing him, just because he's a good friend. It's hypocritical at best and downright corrupt at worst. Like it or not, Bigby is a figure of authority, and he has a lot of responsibility. Excusing them like that destabilizes Fabletown, and it's only going to get worse.

  • Since few Fables did leave the Homelands without their wealth, How were Trolls and Jersey able to afford glamours? They may walk upright but it seems that they were a lot of non-human fables that got glamour. Where was the distinction?

  • edited May 2014

    *pcharl01

    Jersey works for the Crooked Man, Holly runs a bar and Lily was prostituting herself, all of which are arguably lucrative enough to afford them glamours, or possibly just Greenleaf's cheaper, half-assed versions.

  • I didn't choose to allow Toad and Colin to stay for the reasons you said. I took the money from Crane's pocket and gave it to Toad to buy his glamour. It's not like I just let him walk around in toad form. I decided that Crane's money could best be used helping an impoverished toad and his son, especially given the fact that I destroyed one of his apartments and his car. Crane left for Paris, so he won't be taking that money back. Giving it to Toad for a glamour was the best option. As far as Colin goes, he's a good friend of Bigby's and Bigby did destroy his home, so I don't see the problem in letting him stay at Bigby's apartment if he wants to. As long as he isn't walking around New York, it doesn't seem to be a problem. So, I've only made ONE exception, for Colin, and he'll be staying in my home, not wandering the streets of NY.

    My reasons for thinking Snow was being a bit of a b*tch has nothing to do with her asking Bigby to not kill people. It has to do with her acting outside of her duties in previous episodes. I asked her to stay behind for safety reasons when I went to tell Lily about Holly's death. She disobeyed me, interfered with my investigation, and then proceeded to give away evidence without consulting me first. She was out of line and was impinging on Bigby's duties. She was whining saying "What am I supposed to do? Sit around and do nothing?" when Bigby asked her to stay behind. I felt that was incredibly self-centered. She did it before, when Bigby was going to interview Toad Jr.. She makes everything about her at the most inconvenient times. She needs to learn that the world doesn't revolve around her and that sometimes Bigby has to make calls that protect her and others. She may not agree with them, but she needs to let him do his job. I also don't like how she handled Aunty Greenleaf. She wanted to burn down an ancient tree from the old world. That was so unnecessary and disrespectful, in my opinion. At least confiscate it, don't destroy it forever. I don't dislike Snow, but I do think that she is out of line sometimes.

  • I understand your points and they are valid but I think they just have more pressing concerns at the moment, like trying to catch a killer. Once that is taken care of, they can start reforming their offices.

  • She was royalty so she can't help being a little entitled lol

  • edited May 2014

    I did the same with Toad for the same reason, but a lot of players didn't take Crane's money and sent him on his way with just another warning because they didn't want to do anything so despicable as force him to move to the country to protect the community. And your reasoning about Colin basically amounts to "I was an ass to him when we were kids, so now I let him hide his drugs at my place if he wants to. Just because I'm a captain of the NYPD doesn't mean I can't be a good buddy, and it's only for a few days anyway."

    And that's great, but a lot of players seem to resent her simply because she wasn't as cuddly and unprofessional and gave Bigby some strict orders in this episode, and so break the rules and endanger the community just to be contrary. That's what I'm talking about in the OP.

  • The Farm is enormous, though. Seriously enormous. The size is a non-issue compared to the fact that they're forced to stay, and controlled by a distant government of human Fables..

  • I want the community to stay together as much as possible. If any mundies see Colin, he's a pig, its okay. Toad has one more chance, and if anyone sees him I'll wipe their memory and ship him off. I admit it would get messy, but I don't consider it a risk to all fablekind quite yet.

  • Show me how you played the game, because I already know you rushed through episode 2. Letting her stay is not protecting her, because the only time Snow is safe is when she's next to Bigby.

  • edited May 2014

    The problem isn't the offices or the policies of the Fabletown government, I don't know what you think needs to be reformed. My issue is that very few players seem to realize the actual importance of Bigby maintaining secrecy and discipline when he has the option, even if he doesn't personally want to, which is completely overlooking and dismissing what's obviously supposed to be a central conflict in the game and a key element of the realism of the setting.

  • edited May 2014

    According to Crane, memory-wiping is very expensive. But yes, that's all mostly true. Any pig found wandering the city would immediately be rounded up by Animal Control, though, and if he said anything, for any reason, in that situation it would be all over. An intelligent pig who would divulge anything under duress found by the government would crack Fabletown's anonymity wide open. And he could easily say something in front of the wrong person by accident, no matter what the circumstances.

    It just isn't safe to have him walking the streets, and in the long run, confining him to Bigby's apartment is even worse than confining him to the farm, not to mention that the same rules apply to him as to everybody else. Ergo, he has to go to the farm. Toad is a different problem, he can theoretically afford to keep himself and his son glamoured, and if he chooses not to in the future then there's no excuse not to send him too.

  • Okay Colin I understand but for Toad we gave him the money necessary to get a glamour so technically that's not breaking the rules. I didn't let Colin stay at the apartment but Toad's situation is different because he has a kid and Bigby did break his car and wall so more or less Bigby kind of owed him something. Oh and the money we give Toad anyways belongs to Crane so it's no skin off of Bigby's back, and if you want another reason Toad did give us evidence to the case (yeah he was trying to hide it at first but only to protect his son) so you could say it's like paying him back for helping you out. So I get the rules, and I'll enforce them but if there's a way to help people of Fabletown I'll take it rules be damned.

  • Idk why the government should go into this and help fables out

  • edited May 2014

    All perfectly true, but it doesn't excuse him if he starts cheaping out on his and his son's glamours again in the future. I did the exact same thing you did, except I thought of it more as legitimately compensating him for the damage done to his car and wall by the Fabletown government, rather than some sort of personal dept, conveniently solving his money problems in the short term and freeing me from having to relocate them just yet.

    He's without glamour when we first run into him in episode 1, though, before his wall and car are damaged, implying that he either couldn't afford it through his normal business or decided to spare the money and hoped Bigby wouldn't find out. Either way, there's a probability that that will happen again eventually, and if it does then my Bigby won't hesitate to send him to the farm.

  • If you're talking about the mundy government then there's no way to predict how they would react to finding out about fables, especially not if they did it by accident. We don't have a very impressive track record when it comes to dealing peacefully with foreign peoples who are markedly different from ourselves, though, and putting Fabletown utterly at the mercy of the American government doesn't strike me as prudent in any sense of the word.

  • I let Colin stay simply because from Bigby's perspective, there must be an element of guilt left over from the old days (as shown in episode 1) in which Bigby Wolf had pretty much destroyed Colin's house and his lively hood. Wouldn't seem right to just kick him out.

    As in regards to Toad, I gave him Cranes money to get a glamor so that isn't exactly breaking a rule.

  • edited May 2014

    I thought that what your point was, that Bigby and Snow are ignoring their duties. Thats what I thought they would need to fix. Your issue is with the players? I dont know what's in everyone's mind so I cant speak to that, but it seems that if the characters in the game arent making this big of an issue of it, than neither would the players. Its not presented as a life and death situation, mostly as an annoyance and if it got to the point where it was crucial, than we'll know and the players will have to make a more difficult choice.

  • Again, "I was a jerk to him when we were young, before I became a cop" doesn't actually equal "so now he can hide from the law at my place any time he feels like it". And Colin is the youngest of the three pigs. His "house" was a few bales of hay that Bigby scattered.

    Presuming he actually does use them for a glamour for both himself and his son, yes.

  • I would've sent them both to the farm, no questions asked.

  • Even when Colin was sticking up for you? You could look into his eyes and say "GTFO Pig!"

  • I'm sure Colin didn't appreciate Bigby blowing his bales of 'hay' about all the same. I would still feel responsible and it was the only governing factor in allowing him to stay, for me anyhow.

    However I forgot to point out that I strongly disagree with your 2* point concerning Snow and I feel you simplified it.

    I actually agree that there needs to be rule of law and and responsibility to be taken, but Snow made some very bizarre arguments. I might as well start calling her Ned Stark at this point because I feel her way of doing things, the 'honorable' way, will only actually serve to get MORE killed in the end rather than the opposite. To turn around and say to Bigby Wolf to hold off and restrain his wolf form, that very same wolf form that got unleashed as a result of getting shot multiple times and then to blame Bigby for actually not having the required enormous willpower needed for restraining his true natural form after getting shot multiple times....

    Do you blame players for turning around and thinking, "Snow, your just being a tad silly now!" to suggest that Bigby try and restrain himself? Ned, I mean Snow... Is really not approaching this from a realistic point of view. If my Bigby Wolf is ever going to respect her authority, she'll need to wake up first. I just can't comprehend how anyone can turn around and say, "Yes Ma'am, we'll do it your way," while suffering from a broken arm, riddled with bullet holes and having to endure the pain of silver. Just ... Can't ... See it.

    There are times that I would give into her authority and 'respect' it. She asked me to bring back the Crooked Man alive. Sure thing, I'll try to do that. However sometimes things don't work out how they plan though, and Snow seems to be rather delusional in this respect in thinking that everything can be done by the rules, by the book.

    She has overall authority now. And her authority will need to be respected and adhered too for her authority to actually survive. But if she continues live in delusional world and fail to see certain things, her own authority will collapse without any interference from Bigby Wolf. Hell, she was quick enough to simply not deal with Toad/Bluebeard and hand it over to Bigby Wolf, because she simply got fed up and couldn't handle it. If she wants my Bigby Wolf to actually respect her authority she'll bloody need to start acting like the boss around the town and stop handing everything off to Bigby Wolf to have a 'quiet' word with someone. She needs to take responsibility and she also needs to wake up to certain realities.

  • edited May 2014

    Well, that wouldn't really be true. Snow seems to take the secrecy issue seriously, and obviously tries to impose that on Bigby in the fourth episode, forcing him to deal definitively with both Colin and Toad. I just find it curious and wasteful that players tend to go with the friendly, non-confrontational options without even trying to think about it in the bigger picture, which is missing the point of those decisions, and in fact Bigby's job and official role in Fabletown.

    I don't have a problem with the players, I'd just like to draw some attention to this seemingly overlooked issue in the game, to encourage deeper roleplaying. If you think those decisions have been just annoying and irrelevant until now then I'd have to say you're not paying them proper attention, because they're most definitely crucial to Fabletown as a community, and realistically so.

  • Im saying its not treated as something so crucial that it has to be enforced immediately, and maybe thats why players arent taking it that seriously. But I feel like Im repeating myself now so I'll let it go. I understand wanting to draw attention to the issue. I hope you feel like you got at least good discussion out of it.

  • That's not what she said at all. Colin knows the rules, he and Bigby will still be friendly when he's sent back to the farm and sneak off again later, even if they shouldn't technically have the chance. There's a difference between sticking up for a friend without risking anything yourself, and breaking a fundamental and vital security rule that concerns the entire society because your buddy doesn't like it.

  • Well, yes, she's been fairly erratic and impulsive throughout the last two episodes, sometimes even nonsensical, but that's more or less understandable. Her general policies have been pretty sound, and doing the exact opposite of what she says just because she says it when you have your own responsibility and the rules, risks and facts don't change depending on her behavior is just childish and irresponsible. That's all I meant.

  • Yeah, I get it. I was just kidding.

  • edited May 2014

    I do, and thank you. But it is that crucial and the game doesn't hide that, it's the very first issue you're confronted with when you meet Toad in the stairway in the first episode, it's the biggest complication in your relationship with Colin and it's the dominating issue in your conversations with both of them in episode four.

    And besides that it's the key to Fabletown's survival among mundies, and the struggle to afford their glamours is one of the main themes of the downtrodden fables' stories. How can you not realize that it's important? And nobody said the rule had to be enforced immediately, just for the good of the community and without hypocrisy if at all possible.

  • When Colin interrupted Bigby and Snow, Snow had the same look on her face she had at Greenleaf's apartment. We know how that went.

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