• Very good thread. It seems that there are fair complications to both sides. I know Jane wants to keep Clementine to herself, but Kenny won't allow that. Man this is very very difficult to process at the moment.

  • I choose Jane over Kenny, got tired of all the senseless deaths of the group members and it did not have to come to that.

    -Jane.. I saw where she was coming from and understood her, maybe its human for me to get pissed about how she did it, but at the end she thought about the long run and the actual safety for Clem and the baby. She did push Kenny but to kill someone [when she claimed it was a mistake] over a mistake? No and no at least kick her out of the group but do not act like a irrational Carver smh

    -Kenny was reaching that point and everyone breaks one way or another due to the environment or situation they have to adapt to.He even promised not to use that behavior again after Arvo but he lied and pushed threw Clem just to kill Jane, not hit or kuss her out but KILL. Thats def not the old Kenny,[Lilly situation just recap on serita] I** felt bad she pushed him to that point but keeping them two together it was going to get thier evenutally.** Jane even see's this many times before

    Jane was in the right but her method was sad, and Kenny suffered and cracked.

    It was going to happen sooner or later is all Jane was getting at and she was right, its just she decided it now[ break free or show Clem] then to let it happen on its own in time.

    Carver, Jane** made points that eventually came true for group.**

    Its just life sucks, the truth is hard or harsh, and nothing goes as expected

    EDIT Second post-response-eblocksonian

    She did do it for her and Clem hence why she wants her. Clem was last person to bring the worst out of anybody[ depending by what u mean] due to the situation around them and Kenny having a break down. Its not primal but human nature, Clem made her see its not always best to be alone and at the end** if you choose to leave her she says this, she is scared of continuing to be alone and really wanted Clem by her side.**

    Its not about defend or not or right or wrong, those are black and white decisions in a complex world of many different grays. I do not agree to everything neither of them do just explained why and how taking someones else life was too far over a mistake-Kenny then intentionally pushing someones for a test mentality-Jane

    Jane just analyzed the people around her and really thought about survival. She was the only character besides Carver whom really tried or saw threw people physiologically and carefully watch over other ppls actions. If anything she was playing it extremely safe, and who could blame her in a world like this, its not the same as before and ppl must adapt.

    Its unfortunate for Kenny and if you do let him live-[ as fall as i can tell without Jane or no one around but Clem] it was only going to work with him and Clem. You saw the struggle and how if was extremely difficult for him to not clash at the group and vis versa and he even ran over Clem few times due to is anger and promised Clem but did it anyway.

    Kenny was mentality exhausted and broken, this choice had to be made now then later,[ or else neither of em would have gotten any ware and it was going to get worse if Jane stayed around ]

    • Here's the problem, though. Jane didn't do this for rational reasons. Jane didn't this FOR Clementine or the baby. Jane only really wants Clementine. She doesn't want the baby. She doesn't want anyone else. In fact, as uncomfortable she is with Clementine in certain cases (she said so as much as to why she left in the first place), she's even more uncomfortable with everyone else. Additionally, unlike with everyone else, something about Clementine makes Jane tick a little different. Makes do irrational things. You think Jane would have ever done any of that? She might have ditched the baby, but if she did, she would have ran away. She wouldn't have ever confronted Kenny.

      I'm not blaming Clementine, but I think Clementine brings the worst out of Jane. Even Jane somewhat recognizes it. There's something that's...PRIMAL about her desire to be with Clementine. I hate to say this, but if Kenny's past and current circumstances and his need to protect the baby has made him irrational, then Jane's past and current circumstances and her desire for (I'm not sure this correct way to phrase, so forgive if this seems negative) Clementine has made irrational.

      In any case, I'm surprised you defending Jane in your post as a counter-point to my post. I was sure some more ardent Kenny fans would have seen my post as "pro-Jane" or that I'm trying to "explain" her actions.

      • Jane seemed to get along with Luke, Mike and Bonnie pretty well until Kenny tore up the group...

        Anyways, I don't understand why people think Jane is unhealthily obsessed with Clem. Unlike Kenny, Jane makes it a point that Clem should make her own choices, while Kenny blows up whenever Clem doesn't agree with him, going on about how "Jane's filling her head with bullshit". She even lets Clem leave her behind if you shoot Kenny.

        If anything, the reason Jane became so irrational was because up until then, Clem wouldn't take her point on Kenny seriously at all, so she felt like she had to do something drastic. And that's completely the writers' fault. TT doesn't give Clem, at any point, the option to outright agree with Jane that staying with Kenny isn't the best idea. Clem can vehemently disagree, remain neutral, or give her half-hearted answers like "Maybe you're right... not sure thought".

        • I don't dispute the responses available. But Telltale did give hints to Jane's irrationality in regards to Clementine.

          Hint #1: In Episode 4, When Arvo shows up, she holds Arvo and decides to threaten Arvo. She immediately regrets it, and implies this almost never happens when she's on her own.
          HInt #2: In Episode 5, When Jane regrets killing the Russian with the AK, and again makes a similar claim.
          Hint #3: She states she claim back for Clementine, and she will "never abandon her ever again".

          There is also the part where she takes an immediate liking to Clementine and teaches Clementine the tricks of the trade. She requests Clementine.

          But Jane never shows much OBVIOUS signs. She's more... subdued than Kenny. In fact, she doesn't like this irrationallity within her. She very much dislikes it.

          Also, she didn't get along with Bonnie and Mike. She didn't necessarily have a problem with them, but to say she got along with them is stretching it. They didn't butt heads, but I wouldn't say they were in agreement. Remember, Bonnie and Mike leave with Arvo, not Jane.

          • I actually think Clem can be Jane's portal to being open and emotional again. To start to care about other people again. I had an end with Jane and Clem letting family in. Woman hugs Jane and you can see that Jane is starting to melt towards people. My Clem represents vulnerability that Jane is trying to suppress. They are perfect together.

            • I think that's actually a fair point. But I also think, at least Jane really only wants Clementine, for now. My interpretation of the situation was that Jane was surprised when Patricia hugged her. When Jane urges Clementine to tell the family to leave, I don't think Jane would have done that in the past. She's distrustful, but not unwilling to help. If was just Jane, she might have ran and hid, but she couldn't for whatever reason, I think Jane might have let them herself.

              But your points stands.

      • If people can bend over backwards to defend Kenny's asshole actions, then I think we can afford Jane the same. No one in this apocalypse is going to be 100% rational. Hell, even Clem has made some rash decisions and mistakes (you even get dialogue to this effect). That baby was always going to be in danger, left in the car or not. In fact, that car was probably a safe haven at the moment from the biting cold that also would have probably killed the baby. It was just as safe in that car as it was dragging it through the storm to reunite it with a person she considers a dangerous psychopath (and look at that, she was right). In fact, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that she didn't even come up with the plan to trick Kenny until after she got the baby out of the storm, and noticed him and Clem close by.

        No, probably leaving it by itself in the car wasn't that rational of a move, and maybe tricking Kenny was a bit selfish, but she did it out of concern for Clem, whom the game railroads into going along with Kenny pretty much the whole time (leading to the two ultimately butting heads, thought I'm sure it would have come to that had they tried to go their separate ways). She was just forcing an issue that was boiling under the surface, when it was just them, and not a larger group of people that Kenny could have hurt, because the game decided that Clem needed this extreme to be convinced of Kenny's insanity, despite being able to express doubt in him basically throughout the episode (when you weren't forced to defend his behavior).

        Jane was a great new character, emotionally distant because of tragedy (which is better for survival over impotent rage), but being slowly thawed out by Clem's company, and potentially being able to trust again. She's rational and untrustworthy, but puts up with larger groups for Clem. She has, like everyone else, tragedy in her life, and manages to use that strife for productive purposes rather than let it fester and lash out.when the situation goes dire. She's more world worn and stable, despite momentary lapses in judgement, than the selfish, apologetic prick, useful as he may make himself be at times. I don't blame Jane for doing what she did, and I wasn't going to alienate her because she obviously cared for Clem by not outright abandoning the baby and making off on her own.

        I don't get the seething hatred for her. Probably merely because she was in opposition to Kenny. I'm glad I got her ending. Kenny's death was tragic, but in my opinion during this episode, ultimately necessary. And in the heat of the moment, without the hindsight of knowing the baby is actually still alive, its extremely hard to side with the irrational nutcase who would kill someone over what was, in all probability, going to happen to it anyway, well intentions or not. Its not like she murdered the baby, it was an accident. It froze to death (being basically a newborn and all), or Jane got tripped or ambushed by walkers, and it slipped from her hands, or she got surrounded and, despite her best efforts, couldn't stop them from getting to the baby.

        This shit ain't black and white. Kenny is not always right because he "obviously cares for Clem and the baby" and everyone else is automatically wrong and he can do what he wants because his anger is justified because he's lost a lot of people he's cared for. Jane is not automatically a bitch because she was in opposition to Kenny, even if he was being just as stubborn and irrational as her, only with proven history of flying off the handle and not listening to anybody, not even Clem herself, telling him to stop.

        Hmm. maybe this got a little long in the tooth. The point I'm trying to make is, its not fair to demonize Jane because of a couple of (debateably justified) mistakes. I also don't think its fair to absolve Kenny of all his constant "mistakes" just because he appeases to Clem every time he loses his temper.

        Jane/Clem/The Baby all the way. Hopefully Jane can keep her cool now, and further come out of her shell.

        • You do know that I don't hate Jane, right? I like JANE. I just don't people claiming she's doing this for rational reasons. She did it because she NEEDS Clementine now, emotionally. She actually enjoys being around her.

          In any case, this is not a post from a Jane-hater. In fact, I like her more than Kenny. What I don't like is, even though she is the more rational person (she is!), she did not do what she did "for" Clementine for rational reasons. And I don't she did it for Clementine either. She did it for herself. I don't blame her, either. But I am trying to explain why she did it in the most direct manner.

          People may not like HOW describe Jane's actions. But I don't dislike what she did. I just want people claiming she did it for Clementine. She didn't.

          • =P You were just saying that you were surprised at a pro-Jane comment, expecting a lot more Kenny supporters to come bash on the post (honestly, they probably still will -_-) So I was kind of playing off of that.

            I'm sure being a bonehead, putting a crying child in danger, just to prove her point about Kenny (and using Clem as an excuse) is a reasonable point of view, and not something I can completely refute. However, like I posted, no one is 100% rational, and ultimately, considering that she was right about Kenny, and seeing as how she still stuck around even if she could have just taken off like she's prone to do, I think its good evidence that she cares about Clem; not only her physical safety, but her ability to not be blinded by the history of a relationship when dealing with clearly unstable individuals. Perhaps she was trying to be a big sister. O.o

            I kind of think there should have been an option to confront Kenny outright, if not just (probably sadly) outright abandoning him to his insanity. We get plenty of opportunities to be skeptical of Kenny and even tell him off, but we have to wait until Jane makes an slight out of character move to force the issue in a dire situation rather than let us force it sooner without endangering the baby. Instead, we have to wait until Jane is forced into this situation, and then blame her when she doesn't handle it completely perfect.

            She thought she was right, like Kenny did. Like anyone does. To me, she doesn't pretend like it was a comfortable decision, or even a completely sane one, but she felt it needed to be done. And I think, at least for the moment, as manipulative as it seems, we can trust her. And I think she trusts us as well.

            • Nope. I'm not a Kenny supporter. I think he has the right idea most of the time... HOWEVER!!! His actions are stupid. I mean, the guy can't keep cool head at all. Danny has a gun cocked and holding Duck - he rushes Danny when he thinks he's distracted, gets shot. He Blames Lee for not supporting him for not wanting to kill Lilly's father. He also gets pissed at Lee when he saves Ben. Kenny's always asking for support, but doesn't do the same. It's all take and no give with Kenny when it comes to this.

              So, no, I don't like Kenny. I don't hate him, but I don't like him.

              I DO like Jane. I just want people to understand, you don't need RATIONALIZE her actions. It's not necessary. Yes, a lot of it was stupid. yes, a lot of what it was not what she would normally do. But Clementine brings something different out of her.

              • Of course. Are we even arguing anything? I'm trying merely to add to the conversation by speculating on her thought patterns in relation to her actions. We don't have to rationalize what she did, but we do have to understand the reasoning behind it. In my opinion, however, her leaving the child in the car in order to confront Kenny wouldn't have put the child in any more danger than having kept it in the cold, or brought it back to the duo. Her lying even had an underlying reason to it, and while we don't have to rationalize it, we do have to understand why she did it., which I think a lot of people are blind to. They demonize her as being selfish and a bitch, caring only for herself and/or Clem even over the baby.

                Now that I'm typing it up, siding with her is ultimately rationalizing her actions as for the best, even when they seem a little out there and a little stupid and a little selfish. She's kind of getting back into the swing of this whole "caring about other people" stuff, so we can afford her some mistakes.

                I'm not calling you in support one way or the other. I'm just glad for the opportunity to discuss and defend her without Kenny fans defaming her left and right. =P

                How old is Jane anyway? I'm not sure it was said, and she did have relations with Luke, but she looks to be in her late teens, if not outright just eighteen.

      • She did do it for her and Clem hence why she wants her. Clem was last person to bring the worst out of anybody[ depending by what u mean] due to the situation around them and Kenny having a break down. Its not primal but human nature, Clem made her see its not always best to be alone and at the end** if you choose to leave her she says this, she is scared of continuing to be alone and really wanted Clem by her side.**

        Its not about defend or not or right or wrong, those are black and white decisions in a complex world of many different grays. I do not agree to everything neither of them do just explained why and how taking someones else life was too far over a mistake-Kenny then intentionally pushing someones for a test mentality-Jane

        Jane just analyzed the people around her and really thought about survival. She was the only character besides Carver whom really tried or saw threw people physiologically and carefully watch over other ppls actions. If anything she was playing it extremely safe, and who could blame her in a world like this, its not the same as before and ppl must adapt.

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      Kartal5 BANNED

      But Jane didnt tell Kenny that it was a mistake "killing" the baby, her body language strongly implied that she killed AJ which is the reason Kenny got so pissed.

  • The fact is, Jane started to get emotionally attached to Clementine, such as Kenny did with the baby. Kenny has lost so many and his anger got the better of him, but he still knew what was right in order to protect his loved ones, on the other hand, Jane lost the only person that mattered to her, she became attached to Clementine and intentionally showed Kenny's darker side, what would Kenny have done if Clementine lost the baby? We should think about that before accusing Jane of doing wrong, when she was doing what she thought was right, exactly what our Clementine and what Kenny have been doing since the start of the apocalypse, you can't blame either of them for being who they are/who they've become.

    Jane and Kenny are both only human, you can't blame them for being human and letting their emotions and thoughts get the better of them, Jane had the right to show Clementine how dangerous Kenny could become, but she also didn't have the right to hide the baby away in order to provoke Kenny. Kenny didn't have the right to lose his temper with Jane just because she seemingly lost the baby or even go to such lengths as to kill her, however, he did have the right to make the decision of what's better for Clementine and AJ.

    Neither of them are innocent, neither is Clementine in my opinion, everyone who was in the group at any given moment in time played their part which is what lead to that very moment, so therefore, everyone is to blame in a way, but you still can't ignore the fact that everyone is a victim.

    • I'm not blaming Kenny or Jane. I'm just merely explaining that people assuming Jane is doing what she did for rational reasons (I think it's mostly not rational), or, on the other hand, doing what she was out of character for her (not really). If people looked at what the subtext of her actions AND what she explicitly states, you can infer she doesn't care much about the others. It's not that she doesn't care at all, but she can leave them and sleep well at night. Apparently, she can't do this for Clementine.

      • Jane did what she thought was right, for all we know Kenny could've hurt Clementine badly if she was the one who lost AJ, you can't say Jane doesn't care about the others when you don't know for sure, just because someone puts their main focus on one person doesn't mean they care any less for another person, we can only look at Jane as though we were Clementine, it would all be completely different if we played in her point of view.

        • I never said that she didn't care about others. I said she doesn't that MUCH about others. I mean she CARES. If they are hurt, and she doesn't have to lose anything to help them, she will. But if it's a life or death situation where she had to put herself in extreme danger, she will generally decide against it.

          Also, if Jane made it all the way through without getting hurt, she should have just given the baby to Kenny. She did what she did not for Clementine, because she did because she wanted Clementine to leave Kenny. I don't think she intended to kill Kenny, but Jane would normally not have provoked Kenny, even if she hated him.

          • She could've left Rebecca and Clementine in the herd, but she stopped to help despite the fact that she could've been bitten by a Walker. She helped Clementine find Sarah and Luke, her emotions got the best of her, but even when Clementine saved Sarah, Jane still saved Sarah even though she could've just left Sarah to die, when Walkers broke in and almost grabbed her. We don't know if she generally sides against extreme danger, there is no actual proof of that.

            Kenny provoked Jane first and tried to convince Clementine that Jane wasn't a good person while she tried to tell Clementine that she can do something to help Kenny.

    • I like this as well. I ultimately forgave Jane her actions, if only because it was impossible to get through to Kenny anymore, and you never know the next thing that would send him into another fit. He may have once been a good guy doing what he thought was right (all anyone can do, as you've said =P), but he would more than likely end up a danger to everybody in the future, and needed to be put out of his misery. Jane's actions may have been extreme and it's difficult to argue that they weren't. But having built a little more of a relationship with her through the episode, and seeing Kenny continue to devolve, it's easy to me to forgive her a lapse in judgement, especially considering the storm and the dire circumstances outside of the boiling character tension.Though if this starts to become a trend, I hope we get the option to confront her about it in the next season.

      I do, however, find it a bit disappointing that the game basically forced Clementine to be torn between the two until such a time that drastic measures had to be taken.We can't just confront either of the characters and must let all this escalate until we decide or lives or dies (though I'm also sure there was plenty of opportunity to merely wound Kenny and make him stop rather than outright killing him). Why must Jane take such measures in the first place to prove to Clem that Kenny is too dangerous and unstable and not making rational decisions? It really should have been an option to come to that conclusion for yourself. But now, Jane has to provoke Kenny with an outrageous lie in order to convince Clem. That's really the only thing that bugs me. -_-

  • I appreciate your attempt at handling this topic in a neutral fashion.

    After Episode 5 I've come to fancy myself as a Kenny-Loyalist but your original post also seemed to accuse Jane more directly than Kenny to me, which is why Jane-fans would probably be more likely to view it as such.

    I'm curious though, eblocksonian, what were your choices playing through the game the first time and did you come to regret any of them?

    • The thing is, I'm pretty sure everyone already knows what Kenny's problems. Heck, Kenny knows what Kenny's problems are. He GIVES you the baby if you let Kenny live, but decide to leave Kenny. If everyone knows what his problems are, including Kenny, what's the point of "beating a dead horse"? I know. You know. They know. Kenny knows.

      I'm not really accusing Jane as much people dont' seem to understand why she did what she did, and how Clementine "changed" her.

  • Despite everything Jane did that I didn't particularly agree with, Kenny had been a problem from the start of Season 1. Jane may be troubled, but everything she said about Kenny wasn't false, and whenever she got upset, the least she'd do is vent; I mean, Kenny would vent too...but his form of venting usually included forsaking logic and beating the crap out of someone. I ended the game going with Jane, because at least with her she actually had solid reasoning behind why she operated the way she did, and if I would ever come into conflict with her, I'm pretty sure I could talk with her about it honestly and do the best we could to actually make things better; all Kenny ever did was escalate things. If I didn't choose Jane's ending, I would have chosen to be alone, and if I were to pick any sort of Kenny ending, it would be just for the sake of going to Wellington.

    • I don't dispute this. I like Jane. LIke I said, I'm explaining Jane WHY she did what she did. About the only part I disagree with her is hiding AJ and baiting Kenny. The other stuff, well, that's just who she is. My description may not paint it in a good light, but I don't think painting it in good light would do a disserve to a real issue within in Jane.

  • Kenny himself said it best.
    Jane could have stopped the fight at any time, by simply putting down her manipulative, deceitful charade.
    Manipulation and deceit are the two mos evil actions I can think of.
    To her death, Jane continued doing these things. Keeping up a harmful act.
    Kenny could have lashed out in rage to Edith, the guard at Wellington's gate, after Kenny learned that they were no longer accepting new survivors.
    But he didn't.
    He stayed rational, in the midst of what could be considered the greatest tragedy yet, reaching your goal, only to find that the safe-haven is no longer available.

    It is Kenny, staying logical and emotional, staying human, and heroic, who suggests that Wellington only takes the kids, leaving him alone, having completed his goal, his long-time, ever lasting goal, of keeping those he cares about, safe from harm or death. So they can keep laughing like the group did at the camp fire, keep reflecting on the past, drinking, and, well, living.

    This is something that (determinantly) the most flawless hero of the Walking Dead, clearly agrees with. It's said in his flashback, that you need to protect those you care about, even if others are in the way. (Though that quotation can be misinterpreted to convince players to shoot him, maybe.)

    Even if Clementine chooses to deny Kenny's wish for his heroic ending, Kenny still isn't mad. Once again he accepts it, wit ha smile on his face, and he goes on surviving, now with only people he trusts.

    Watch Kenny's body language. He's always being genuine. If we're not genuine to each-other in the Walker apocalypse, what are we left with?
    The episode is called "No Going Back". We're not turning around, even if we are chasing a pipe dream. Chasing pipe dreams worked out for us in the past, when we went to Savannah to get a boat. It worked for us again, when we went to Wellington to live.
    (I'm aware that people died in Savannah, but, whatever, Kenny and Clem made it out fine.)

    Earlier one commenter suggested that Kenny would hurt Clementine if she had gotten the baby killed.
    That's damn wrong. You're being wrongly presumptuous. Look at the conversation with Kenny after Jane's death.
    Kenny could have partially blamed Clementine for the baby's death right there, when Kenny and Clementine thought Alvin junior was dead, but he didn't. He began to accept it, on the spot. No rage, no hostility.

    Guess what? Arvo is a piece of shit. My Clementine did abolutely everything I could for Arvo, but was still shot by him, because Arvo responded to Kenny's abuse with misguided abuse. Kenny still feels bad for Arvo, though. He still realizes what he did was horribly wrong, but, Arvo ends up being a near-murderer anyway, in order to get back at Kenny? That's not right. At all.
    When Ben got people killed, guilt ate him up. Arvo turned into the shooter, instead. Not cool.

    I could go on, but I fell asleep and lost some more of my thoughts. If anyone could reply to this to motivate me to continue the conversation, please do.

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