992 Comments
  • You know, Kenny provoked Jane first and he even tried to convince Clementine that Jane was a bad influence.

    • My opinion is of the opposite. I feel Jane provoked Kenny first and she tried to convince Clementine that he was insane.

      • So she was expecting a calm reaction from Kenny by making the guy assume she killed a baby. Really good plan, might as well shoot clementine i mean she would get a similar reaction out of it.

        Edit-NVM.

        • She told him it was an accident and he tried to murder her.

          • It doesn't makes it any better, looking at the self-centered, manipulative background jane had even if it did was an accident, you couldn't really know for sure if she was saying the truth or she just left the baby there as bait to save herself from zombies.

            Im guessing the possible death of AJ was not that big on some players because the baby was only in the game for 2 episodes, but im pretty sure if it was clem instead of the baby you would've shot jane no questions asked.

            • I easily knew what Jane was playing at, I could see it in her expression and I could hear it in her words, I guess it's not that easy for everyone.

              Except Jane didn't kill the baby, she only hid it, why would I get mad at Jane for hiding Clementine from someone who could be a danger to her?

              • She could have stopped the fucking fight by saying "Kenny, Kenny, the baby's alright", Kenny would have put his Floridian O-O face and went "Wha--?" and then she explains what the fuck was the trying to prove. She didn't, she wanted to kill him.

                Why the fuck did she start bashing Kenny while driving?!

                NOT EVEN in a non-apocalypse you can you around joking with a baby's death, what the fuck! She was looking for a fight to the death. She got it (in my game).

                • Jesus Christ SO MUCH THIS

                • Everyone has a different understanding of characters, sorry if I always look for the good intentions within a character's motives or actions.

                • i disagree i think he would of tied her up or something. I don't think he would of been like okay well lets go get him then

                • "I didn't kill him!" ~Jane

                • Jane obviously wanted Clem to come with her, to make sure she stays safe and away from Kenny. If she would just reveal her plan, Clementine wouldnt care to follow Jane because Clem was so blind about Kenny being Carver 2.0, mainly because they had been friends for a while.

                  • If she would just reveal her plan, Clementine wouldnt care to follow Jane because Clem was so blind about Kenny being Carver 2.0, mainly because they had been friends for a while.

                    Which to me is one of the biggest problems with season 2. The most harsh thing you can have Clem feel towards Kenny for most of the season is cautious optimism or something.

            • EXACTLY! Why not so many people thought of it that way? I feel like TTG wanted to bait us into killing Kenny...

          • She pulls a knife on him. It's different if she was defending herself with her fists, but as soon as she put the knife into the equation she crossed a line even after she puts it away. It's enough to say loudly with her actions that she has intent to kill. From that point on it's not about the baby or if he's acting too violent, but about them not getting killed by the other.

            • What she was saying at that point was. "I don't need a knife to beat you. I can take you"

            • In defense. Notice she put the knife back and he attacked when she had no weapon

              • She gave Kenny multiple chances to stop the fight, but he let his anger cloud his actions.

                • No she didn't. If she really wanted to end the fight she could have either told him what happened to AJ and stopped lying to him as well as not jump on Kenny and start beating on him when Clem tries to tear Kenny away. At that point they're separated there was no need for her to hit him if she didn't want to fight, but instead she keeps it going because that's exactly what she wants.

                  • She put her knife away... if she wanted to kill Kenny she would've kept her knife out...

                    • No she put it away to make herself not so obvious. If she was too obvious that she wanted to kill him, Clem wouldn't forgive her or side with her or at least not so easily. She even later stabs him, so just because she puts it away doesn't mean she isn't going to use it again. That's BS. If she threw it on the ground so neither could get it, that'd be different. If she didn't want to have any fight at all, like I said if Clem takes him off her, Jane should have either backed off more or ran, not try to beat Kenny when he's down. If she was all "stop stop please don't hurt me" or something like that, then yeah she would be trying to stop it more not taunting him instead, thus provoking the fight. There's no getting around it, Jane wanted that fight 100%.

                      • She stated that she didn't want to kill Kenny, she talked about how her plan was only to show what Kenny was capable of so that Clementine knew that she wouldn't be safe with Kenny. She stabs him out of self-defence, he was charging at her, also, Kenny uses the same knife to stab her in the leg and try to kill her with it. You can't actually prove that she wanted the fight, just because there is evidence doesn't mean that she actually intended to do so, do you forget that Kenny provokes Jane first? He talks about how Jane is a bad influence, how Jane is a bad person and insults her behind her back, he talks about how she was nothing, how she cares for no one and that no one cared for her, if anything, Kenny is the one that caused the fight with Jane.

                        • As for the conversation before in the car, we don't get the WHOLE conversation. Clem was knocked out. That's just what we hear first and have no idea who started talking about what first and how that conversation got started or how long it was going.

                          okay here's what happens after the initial stuff, Clem pulls Kenny off Jane. Then while he's covering himself and not being all that aggressive imo (he could try using his feet or roll to get out of this pretty easily. Kenny seems like the guy experienced in brawls enough) Clem pulls Jane off. It looks like he's about to grab her or punch her not sure which and then Jane stabs him. She STABS him. It's not going to be a brawl or fist fight anymore. This is about kill or be killed. It's done. If she punched him in the gut it's different, rolled, ran, ANYTHING but STAB him, then you'd could have more justification saying it's self defense but it's hardcore aggressive attempt at murder. When you stab someone you intend to kill. Jane show intentions of killing FIRST. If she didn't want this then she, like she said should have taken him without the weapon but she doesn't.

                          As for what she says after the fight did you maybe think that she was just flat out lying to Clem? And if we don't base things off of evidence what DO we base them on?

                          • Kenny attacked first and he could've killed Jane if she wasn't good at fighting, she slashed Kenny with a knife for self defence, don't think Kenny wouldn't have done the same if he had the knife, in which he stabbed Jane with, I would call it murder, when two people are both trying to kill each other. Kenny actually shows intentions of killing first by choking Jane and attacking first, not to mention he is the one who can ultimately end Jane's life with a knife, in which he didn't actually have to. Do you really think Jane wouldn't have taken the advantage? Kenny would've too.

                            Obviously Kenny was trying to convince Clementine to forgive him, did you ever think that maybe she ISN'T lying to Clementine? Evidence is not always true, we can base everything on the evidence that someone attempted to kill someone and end up finding out that someone completely different caused it. You can't base things on evidence we don't truly have, so what if Jane reacted? Kenny reacted first. You can tell by Jane's dialogue that her plan to show Clementine what Kenny was capable of didn't work out at that point.

                            • Oh so now if someone has a knife which they stab you with you won't try to take it away and turn it on them? He doesn't choke her, he pins her with his arm. It appears they're struggling over the knife at that point. I don't know Kenny's intentions 100%, but if I were in that situation I know for damn sure I'd try to take that knife away from her, whether I was going to fight her or not. And yes he did have to kill her. As soon as she slashed him with the knife it was over. One of them had to die in order for the other to be safe. C'mon you'd think they'd just let the other walk away? People kill each other in the zombie apocalypse just for simply knowing someone's base location, this is worse. You can't expect to stab someone and not have them try to kill you in ANY situation. If she really expected him to back off and not fight her, when she put the knife away like you said, then she didn't think he was actually going to kill her and thus she shouldn't be so utterly threatened for her life that she'd STAB him and instead use her fists or I don't know not be aggressive and RUN.

                              You could think of it this way. They were both too aggressive, whether you chose to interfere with their fight at the end when you knew there was nothing you could do to stop them from killing one another, is on your/Clem's conscious. Let's say that was true. Let them hash it out with each other then. Kenny wins that way and there is also nothing wrong in what you do since they both wanted it and they're right about Clem needing to stay out of it. But you in the end decide it's fair for you to judge and kill someone in the heat of the moment. It's a mistake.

                              We can argue about the rest all day long, I don't think we're going to convince the other so I suppose that's that.

                              • If you were being pinned to a glass frame and possible being choked, wouldn't you use a weapon if you had one? You wouldn't know what you'd do unless you actually get into the exact same situation. So you're saying that just because one used a weapon that the fight couldn't have been ended? Either of them could've tried to end the fight, but obviously neither of them refused to do so. Daryl got shot in the head by Andrea, how did he react? You think either Jane or Kenny wanted to do so? They both try to tell Clementine that they never meant for the other to get killed. There're no mistakes in a decision if you think before you act, at least not for me. I actually see your points and understand them, but I can't agree when you automatically seem to think that Kenny is the better individual, without thinking of Jane's experiences and possible intentions.

                                • Firstly Jane created the fight by making up a scenario, which would make most people do what Kenny did. I mean really, if someone who had been against this baby all along (she even implied to Becca that she should just get rid of it) then came up to you, and implied the baby was dead. First thought would be she killed it. The "He's..." confirms it.
                                  Would you really just let it go? Move on? Not react?
                                  Lets look at the fight shall we?

                                  "Where is he Jane?..."
                                  "He's...
                                  "What are you saying? No....NO!"
                                  Kenny runs off
                                  "No, not again,not again..."
                                  "Clem, no matter what - just stay out of it"
                                  "Stay out of what?"
                                  "You gotta trust me, youre gonna see what he really is."
                                  Kenny comes back
                                  "How could you kill a fucking child?!" takes swing
                                  "I didnt kill him, it was an accident Kenny!" Pulls knife "I wont back down from you Kenny"
                                  "Shut up!"
                                  "Clem, stay back"
                                  Jane puts knife away "Dont you come near me you son of a bitch!"
                                  Kenny pins Jane, reaches for knife
                                  Kenny ends up on ground, Jane pounces. If Clem pulls her off as soon as Kenny stands she tries to gut him. strong text Jane tries to Kill Kenny firststrong text
                                  Jane to Kenny "This is all your fucking fault!"
                                  "You piece of shit!"
                                  *Jane swings with the knife again - aiming for another kill stroke - the neck area

                                  Kenny blocks, goes down. Jane shove fingers in eye sockett
                                  "Hows that fucking feel, huh?"
                                  "Hes had enough!! LISTEN TO ME!" Jane doesnt stop
                                  "Get her off!"
                                  Clem pulls Jane off, Kenny goes for knife. Stabs her in leg strong text not a lethal attackstrong text Clem falls
                                  "You fucking baby killer!"
                                  "I didnt!"
                                  *Kenny has Jane pinned, knife at chest

                                  "I'll fucking kill you!"
                                  "I knew you would!"

                                  Jane instigated the fight...she wanted to show Clem that he was willing to kill someone. However IMO she got it wrong. She showed from the start clear intent to kill or maim him, far more than he did. AT ANY POINT she could have ended it, and said "AJ's alive" Especially when he had her pinned right at the end, about to kill her Instead, she continues the ruse "I knew you would..." Why didnt she say "Stop! Hes alive ok, He alive Kenny!" He would have stopped. He'd be pissed as hell, she'd tried to gut him and shoved her fingers in his eye socket. But he'd keep her alive because he'd want to know where the kid was. She'd have to prove it to him.
                                  He'd more than likely leave her behind after...tie her up and leave her to the zombies, maybe. But he wouldnt outright kill her knowing the kid was safe. That was his only reason for killing her. He had never killed someone on his team before, he had never willingly put someone in danger who was on his team.
                                  Even Ben, who he wished dead after causing the death of his entire family (again, a perfectly normal, human reaction) He still put his life on the line to save "That fucking shitbird Ben"
                                  Yes he disagreed with people, and he was very vocal in letting people know how he felt, but he'd still side with his group, even if he disagreed. He'd sulk like hell about it, and take offence that you didnt side with him. But again. Hes human!
                                  If mommy and daddy fight, and you pick a side, youre going to hurt one of them. Theyre going to be upset, and probably pissed off that you didnt side with them. No difference here at all!

                                  The anti Kenny people have 2 main arguments against him.
                                  1/ Hes volatile and dangerous... Hell yes hes volatile! Stress can do that to people. But dangerous? Kenny is fiercely protective of his allies, and would die for them (Ben) He would go even further for those he cares about. IMO thats one of the best human traits anyone can have. Protect the ones you love. At any cost.

                                  2/ He turns against you if you disagree with him... yeah, sometimes. Not always, he'll always react - hes never happy about it. But would you be? But he doesn't always leave you out to dry for disagreeing with him.
                                  The funny thing is, it that is exactly what the anti Kenny folks do. He has an opinion different to theirs, and they hate him when he disagrees!

                                  Kenny is not a bad guy. He was a million miles away from becoming someone like Carver, he LOVED Clem, and would do anything to protect her. Anything.
                                  If you take the leave Kenny option at Wellington you know that.
                                  I didnt, I stayed with him. Because I feel the only way my Clem will survive long in this world, is with people who would lay down their lives for her. People like Lee. People like Kenny.

                      • No she put it away to make herself not obvious.

                        LMAO I cant even take this seriously anymore.

                    • She put the knife away so she can slash him later (and she did)

                      • She put the knife away so she can slash him later (and she did)

                        Are you even reading yourself?

                        She put away her weapon, so she could use it?

                        She only brought it back out, because Kenny charged her. Was she supposed to just let him kill her? Beat her to within an inch of her life?

                        She told him, that she wouldn't back down, and then she didn't back down. Big fucking surprise!

                        • She thought she could take him head on , and that didn't work so she had to surprise him by slashing him but not hard enough to kill him.
                          By then i made my decision to side with Kenny and the way she tought about sarah and AJ made that choice easier

                          • She was on ground when Kenny was charging at her... What would you do when maniac runs at you while you are on ground?

                          • She took out her knife to defuse the situation.

                            She told Kenny that she wouldn't back down from him.

                            Then she put the knife away.

                            Thus she had illustrated a willingness not to escalate the fight - but also made it clear that she wouldn't be backing down!

                            Kenny proceeds to attack, and then you're blaming Jane for defending herself.

                            The stretching of the imagination that this explanation requires is honestly just amazing.

                            Right around the 1:25:00 mark.

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhCda5z-vwQ

                • No she didn't. Kenny actually tried running away after he got slashed by the knife but she kept coming after him. If you try to stop Jane from going after Kenny she shoves Clem to the ground and goes back to stabbing Kenny.

              • I dunno about you but if someone pulls a knife on me, there's no way in hell I'm going to trust them and am going to feel threatened no matter what. She also followed the group without them knowing so killing her is going to be the only way they'd be safe, since she could follow them and sneak up on them later. And because after she said she could take him even without the knife as she puts it away, only means she took the knife out to provoke a violent reaction. Her actions are clearly manipulative. She wanted to fight; she wanted to kill him and find a way to do it to justify it to Clem and make it look like self defense when it wasn't.

                • I wouldn't feel threatened if it was in obvious fear or defense of me. That'd be a realization that I shouldn't be freaking people out like, more so in front of Clem. You're just nitpicking with the knife pulling to provoke part. i don't condone what she did with the baby or Kenny, but he was the physical aggressor in that. She saved them so unsure what you mean by following them

                  • lol you wouldn't feel threatened if someone pulls a knife on you if you attacked first? I don't care if you have a gun instead of your fists, you're going to feel threatened when someone has a weapon, period. Don't be unrealistic. Jane didn't do anything to stop the fight, she egged it on. She wanted it. If Jane instead covered herself or ran and said "stop stop stop, please don't hurt me!" Then yes, it'd be more reasonable to react that hey maybe I'm getting too violent here and freaking people out. But that didn't happen and instead she added fuel to the flames, since this was everything she was working for.

                    Yeah Jane saved them at that point but she still followed them without the group knowing about it. If she didn't reveal herself then, who's to say Jane wouldn't have tried to steal the car or even Clem when no one was looking?

                    • Yes - if Jane had reacted like every other person that Kenny has bullied, things would've turned out differently.

                      But Jane doesn't. She pulls out her knife, gets the fight to die down a bit.
                      Then she puts the knife away and tells Kenny that she isn't going to back down - if he comes at her, she won't back down, she will fight him.

                      At which point Kenny hurls himself at her.

                      • Yes because when someone threatens me with a knife and says pretty much "I can take you bring it on" that must mean I should calm down and not attack in defense before she has a chance to throw that knife or whatever else, this lady is up to, whom I believe just killed a kid on purpose or without trying hard enough to save, who prior to this was pissing me off every second she could even though I've clearly been on edge because I'm seriously upset about being helpless to save all the people either dying around me or betraying me. I'd think blind rage and at least a fist fight seems pretty normal behavior in that case but hey maybe that's just me.

                        • Yes because when someone threatens me with a knife and says pretty much "I can take you bring it on" that must mean I should calm down and not attack in defense before she has a chance to throw that knife or whatever else, this lady is up to,

                          She didn't say "I can take you bring it on", she said "I won't back down" - a huge difference!

                          And she said it right after she put the knife away!

                          It's not an invitation to fight, it's a message of: "If you choose to fight me right now, then know that I will not back down from you, and it will be to the end" - that was the choice she gave to Kenny, and when Kenny subsequently attacked, discussion time was over.

                          • Alright I looked at a youtube video to check this.
                            Jane says with knife out "I won't back down from you Kenny. I'm warning you" Clem has a chance to say something and I think Kenny's reply is determinate to hers not sure exactly. In the video I watched it was "let her talk" and "I'm done talking". Then Jane says "Clem stay back." And when they show Kenny's face it appears as though he's threatened and even more pissed off by this. Then she says "Don't you come near me you son of a bitch." Kenny charges.

                            Why he charges could be he's trying to take the knife away from her. However what I find more important is this: WHILE they are struggling she's trying to take the knife out again. There's no going around the fact Jane intends to stab Kenny right from the start whether she is tricking either Clem that she's doing it self defense or trying to trick Kenny into the idea she's not going to use it on him.

                            Even if she would have backed down if Kenny didn't charge her at the start, either way if he was going to fight her she was very much intending to kill him, which imo is too over the top and aggressive. It's one thing to brawl and fight, it's another to murder. It's clear Jane wants to KILL Kenny, regardless of what she says after. Her actions are different than her words. People lie all the time. How can you trust her so readily when you don't even know her all that well even if you don't give a flip for Kenny?

                            • My god... I wish you could see what you sound like to me.

                              How dare she do anything to defend herself. The only rational thing Jane could've done here to satisfy you people is to slit her own throat with her knife. Then MAYBE you'd accept her actions.

                            • I think we've sort of agreed on the events that happened, and we just happen to view them differently. I won't regurgitate some of my earlier arguments. It has at least been informative :)

                              I will touch upon this bit:

                              How can you trust her so readily when you don't even know her all that well even if you don't give a flip for Kenny?

                              I would say I trust Jane, because I've seen her develop from loner into slowly bonding girl. She sees the group and Clem as a chance for redemption and her coming back to save the group was the pivotal point for her character.

                              After that she saves Clem from drowning, she starts to care for the baby, and she hasn't lied to me at any point. Not even at the end - she told me to trust her, and I did (and to my mind was proven right in doing so).

                          • Like Kenny was hearing a word she was saying anyway.

                            Kind of like his fans.

                    • If I attacked first maybe I deserved a knife?

                      Just a weird thought. But then again I'm not Kenny so......

                • she wanted to kill him and find a way to do it to justify it to Clem and make it look like self defense when it wasn't.

                  Its too bad she's not Kenny.

                  She wouldn't have to do anything to justify it.

          • She still pushed him over the line and into insanity by purposefully endangering AJ. That's straight up wrong. Just as wrong as Kenny losing his mind and trying to kill her.

            • Totally agree. Any way you look at it they both were insane. You just had to chose which one you'd rather be with.

            • Kenny has done allot more bad than Jane, all Jane did was lie to Kenny about the baby which he became quickly attached to, while Kenny wanted to kill Ben, he made false accusations towards Luke and Jane, he let his anger cloud his judgement on multiple occasions, he stole from other survivors, he wanted Lee to let a girl suffer, he practically acted as though he was the leader of the groups, he was only nice to people who sided with him and his family, he beats Arvo up to an inch of his life and bullies him throughout the early parts of the episode which was before Clementine got shot, he killed Jane when he didn't need to and became too overprotective over the baby, Kenny has done good too, but the point is that we know Kenny has done more bad than Jane, and we know for a fact that Jane isn't someone who kills for pleasure or revenge, while Kenny killed for his own intentions.

            • That was the whole fucking point... She wanted Clem to see what Kenny is capable of and that it isnt safe to be around him.

              • In the apocalypse he showed more guts then Jane ever did se ep5 seas 1
                and in the end of seas2 he sacrificed himself is they just take clem and AJ in... witch they would do only its you're choise to do so
                I think kenny is the safer way in a world of zombies rapist cannibals and psycho's
                Jane walks off to easy

                • What is this self sacrifice bullshit which people keep talking about? He didnt sacrifice anything in the last episode. He just didnt have spot for wellington and only very selfish person would not let others go there if they cant come. Only thing he showed is that he is capable of not being huge prick for a minute.

                  • He sure as hell did, they said there was no room, but he insisted that they would stay and he would take off.
                    So she asked and they could stay and Kenny was relieved, but I guess you didn't play it like that

                    • There is room for 2, but not for Kenny. Now tell me, where did he sacrifice anything? He didnt have anything to sacrifice. Only thing he did was give up on their friendship, because he couldnt come to wellington. Its what any normal person would have done and that isnt sacrifice. Clem was the one making sacrifice because she had a choice, Kenny didnt.

              • But by showing what he was capable of, killing someone in the heat of the moment. She sis the same thing. Infact hers was worse. Hers was premeditated.

          • Okay, hold on a second- replace Kenny with Lee, and replace the baby with Clementine. You think Lee wouldn't act the way Kenny did and murder Jane?

            • If Lee was under the impression that Jane left AJ to die/killed AJ he would. Especially if he knew Jane like the group and Clem did. She goes on about how she's only out to save herself numerous times, she implies that Rebecca should get rid of the baby, she leaves Sarah to possibly get eaten, she leaves her sister to get eaten(I understood why she did this, but on the surface this looks really bad, and I don't think Lee would ever do something like that), and then she leaves the group and Clem after the catastrophe that went down at the observatory. She's fickle, and she's not above manipulating others to get what she wants/save herself. I'm fairly sure that Lee would lose it on her too, because it'd be hard to believe that AJ died by accident, given her track record.

              • Lee and Kenny essentially had the same morals. The same ideas, Lee would often want to hold up and think it through. But he'd go with what Kenny said. Because even though it was a deplorable option. The state the world was in, it was often the only "right" thing they could do.
                Like leaving the girl to get eaten when they were getting supplies from the pharmacy. Wanting to save her is a good, normal human reaction. But it would more than likely get you killed too. It wasnt like she was 3 feet away and they could grab her. She was 50ft away surrounded by walkers. It would take a miracle to get her out unbitten.
                Remember what Jane said about rescuing the guy under the truck? They lost 4 guys and he was bitten anyway.
                Whilst it was morally right to try and save him. It was the wrong decision.
                Sometimes you have to do something morally wrong, to make the right one. Like leaving the girl. You'll know that if you played more than once. I tried to save her...an the outcome was far worse than when I left her.
                My Lee would definitely react the way Kenny did, he had reactions like that during season 1 ...why wouldnt he in season 2 after the added strain of survivng years in the ZA?
                Kenny was the only member of that group (bar Clem, and maybe Luke) with any real attachment to that baby, and with good reason. He bought him into this world. He was a good father, he loved his family so much and he had them taken away in the blink of an eye. Now all of a sudden. Hes a father again. Not because hes chosen to be one. Because no one else wants to be responsible for a baby.
                SO of course he bonds with it, its his second chance...and the one good thing in the end of the world. So of course hes going to protect it. It symbolises hope! And without hope, what point is there in surviving? As Kenny says "Its what people like Lee believed in, and people like Jane will never understand."

            • We'll never know since that's not how the story goes... you can't keep saying what if it was... IT WASN'T! You can't compare Clementine to AJ, you can't compare Lee to Kenny, they are all different, if Lee was alive, I don't think that Clementine would've even met Jane, Kenny again or Luke.

            • Someone that uses the same example as I did! Brilliant high fives

              Oh, wait, I can't, Lilly killed me.

            • Barring the fact that if it had been Lee instead of Kenny things never would have progressed to this state (on account of Lee not being a stubborn, violent bully), then no I don't think Lee would've acted similarly at all.

              Lee's first thought would be to see if perhaps the baby could still be saved. If you dropped him on accident, then he's still out there. We can still save him.

              Lee did what was necessary, but he never relished the violence, he didn't become more and more uncontrollably violent. He could dish out the hurt, but only when it was necessary. The worst thing Lee would've done to Jane was to abandon her, like he abandoned Lilly.

              This is probably just my version of Lee of course :)

              • Are you forgetting what he did to the St Johns?

                • What are you talking about?

                  At what point was Lee needlessly violent? When he determinately spared Danny's life?

                  You must be referring to when he beat up Andy... You know right after Andy tried to shoot him, and then stick his face into an electrical fence.
                  He might have been a little bit overly violent, but he did stop before going all out, plus it was against a grown man and not either a tied-up teenage boy or a 20-something girl whose only supposed crime was being mean to Kenny (whilst Kenny was also mean to her) and then apparently accidentally losing a baby. I can see the similarities...

                  So once again, what are you talking about?

                  • I'm saying that in a situation like the ZA. It's similar... The situations are what matters. Not the people involved. And Kenny didn't go all out on Arvo. He "Got a bit violent" but since it was ok for Lee to do it. I'm guessing it's ok for Kenny too

                    • Except for the very clear and marked differences in the situation.

                      Lee would not beat up a tied up teenage kid. He might kill him quickly if he was somehow a threat - but he wouldn't just beat up on him, because some situation or other made him feel impotent/powerless.

                      If Arvo had gotten free and then nearly killed Kenny - then it would be different.

                      And I know you're probably going to say that this is what happened with Jane - and you'd be partially right, except it's what happened to Jane, by Kenny.

                      • But we can't say what Lee would have done as fact. Because we don't know. Personally I think Lee would be more likely to beat on Arvo, because he felt powerless.
                        Because that's exactly what happened when he killed the senator.
                        He came home, was faced with a situation he wasn't prepared for. And all those emotions led to him killing a man. That doesn't just go away.

                        • Well I think Lee would've turned into a fighter jet and flown them all to the moon!

                          Of course all my previous statements about Lee were my opinion of it - based on the Lee I had played as. Of course I can't say for sure what a fictional character would do in a situation that he's never presented as being in.

                          Most likely he would do what the writers wrote him as doing.

                          All I was trying to do was look at what I think he would have done, based on previous games.

                          And based on that, I really just don't see Lee beating up a bound teenage kid. How you even compare that to coming home and finding your beloved wife banging some random guy, I don't even know.

                          Going back to St. John - when he has almost been killed by Andy and then subsequently started beating him up, that situation might - just might - be comparable to the situation with his wife and her lover. It was someone who had hurt him (albeit in widely different ways), and who had just - right now! - done so.

                          So yeah - Lee might be able of a Kenny-like outburst of emotion, sometimes resulting in violence, but he moves on rather quickly. He isn't stuck in his violent outburst ways. He might have hit Arvo right after the situation with the Russians ended, but he wouldn't keep beating on Arvo just to make himself feel good. If for nothing else, then he wouldn't do it, because he wouldn't want Clem to see him like that.

                          DISCLAIMER: All of the above is based on my opinion. I do not - obviously - know what Lee would have actually done, and it would have been dependent on our previous choices. I am not a God, so I do not know.

                          • But Lee hasnt lost family. Every character in the game must have some form of PTSD by now. Now imagine being in almost the same situation as season 1 - whilst suffering from PTSD. Kenny loses the woman he loves, again. Hes with the same girl he helped protect 2 years ago, and now he has a baby to look after. Because no-one else is interested, by default he is a father again.
                            Can you think what that would do to anyone, the fear of losing it all a second time.
                            If Lee had lost a wife, or a child. Or even Clem in season 1. Then was faced with an eerily similar situation 2 years later. He'd probably have trouble keeping his emotions in check too!
                            Kenny has suffered a different kind of pain to the rest of the group. Im not saying a worse pain. But a different one.
                            He lost a child, no-one else did, and you cant compare the loss of a friend, a relative or a parent to losing a child.
                            Its something many people never recover from, so personally I think Kenny is holding his shit together better than most would!

            • Jane would have no reason to. Because Lee would never give her a reason to!

          • She told him it was an accident and he tried to murder her.

            Well no duh she was lying. We all had seen how she acted in the past and how she was ALWAYS only caring for herself. The first chance she disappears without someone watching her and she happens to have the baby and she comes back immediately without the baby. It was so evident she wanted that baby gone before the fight happened it was ridiculous. On my first playthrough I had a sickening kind of feeling that she had just left it out in the snow so she could run faster or killed it in general. Luckily she just hid him but still. Kenny got the same feeling I got.

            • Because you never did understand her. I didn't once believed she killed AJ or even lost him in an accident. I knew something was up and she was trying to pull something, and that AJ's alive somewhere.

              Jane is many things, but seeing her interactions with Clem and even the group I knew killing AJ is not what she can do. I was rather upset at her at the end but chose to forgave her anyway because I believe she truly did that for Clem's benefit, even if the method wasn't the best and even backfired, and also because she returned to the group for Clem.

      • I wonder how many bodies Kenny is allowed before she's proven right.

        Trick question. Its Kenny he's allowed as many bodies as he wants.

        • How many bodies has Kenny created? List them for me please.... how many has he purposefully gotten killed? Yes people have died because of his mistakes. As have they all....even Clementine "Sometimes people die because of me..."
          Honestly, I want to know. Because I cant think of one.
          And we can't count Larry. That guy was dead.

    • Actually no! He's never hidden the fact that he doesn't like her. But he's left Clem to make her own decisions with Jane. Jane outright tries to brainwash Clem into thinking Kenny is a bad guy. And provokes him...nd keeps provoking until she finally gets a violent reaction.
      And I'd like to think that most of you here would act the way he did when he thoughts she'd killed a baby. Or would you just let it go?
      I am intrigued though. How do you think he provoked Jane?

      • But he had no reason to think she'd killed the baby. She said it was an accident, the fact she didn't come in with Clem proves something went wrong. The kenny went into one of his blind rages.

        I liked kenny, but his mind was always fragile and when he attacked jane it had snapped. If you side with Jane kenny even sees that at the end.

        • Jane left Clem in the car all alone, then she dares come back without the baby?!

          • She did. She did what Ben did in Savannah. Faced with danger, and she looked after number one.
            Exactly the sort of person you do not want in your corner during the ZA!

            • She could have said at any time, that the baby was alive, she had so many opportunities, but she threw away her life for a petty dispute. I let Kenny kill her because I thought she had killed the baby. Also, after Jane actively tries to kill Kenny, throwing Clementine to the ground and trying to murder him.

              • I've said it before and I'll say it again...Do you really think that if she said that the baby was fine Kenny would have believed her? When they got to the house he randomly started beating on Arvo because he assumed there weren't any supplies in the house, even though there were; then, when Jane says that the baby died and says it's an accident, he starts beating on her because he assumes she killed AJ.

                • And whose to say that Kenny wouldn't hurt Clementine if she was the one who lost AJ?

                  • Kenny has many flaws, and I acknowledge that. I'm not a Kenny fan, I don't really even like him, but it was because I thought the baby was actually dead. Given Jane's shady background, and how hard it would be for her to accidentally lose the baby, as you can't just drop it, and the walkers were frozen, I thought she killed it. I was so pissed at Jane, I wanted to shoot her myself.

                • I've said it before and I'll say it again...Do you really think that if she said that the baby was fine Kenny would have believed her?

                  At that point Jane leads him to the car and says "Here's the baby." He'd still have been pissed that she even TRIED to do what she did. What she did was f*cking ridiculous by all standards. Anyone who sided with Jane in my opinion only did so cuz they were tired of listening to Kenny bitch.

                  • He wouldn't follow her to the car, he'd be too busy trying to murder her.

                  • It was SOOOOOOOOOOOOO not that simple. You Kenny fans are acting like this is a simple black and white matter. I shot Kenny because I felt whatever Jane did didn't mean she deserved to die for it. In my playthrough I picked every option that BEGGED Kenny to hear her out. He says "i'm done talking" and he even shoves Clem aside showing he refused to even try to hear Jane out. I hated doing it because Kenny was my friend. But he forced my hand. I couldn't sit there and let him kill someone over a mistake! I just couldn't.

                    So I didn't do it to get rid of Kenny. And I didn't do it because I liked Jane more. I did it because Kenny was too far gone. So I asked him "why did you make me do this?" and he says "I let you down. Thank you for stopping me" He found the peace he desperately needed

                • I 100% believe that nothing short of her death would've satisfied Kenny. In fact its pretty obvious with his body language and his actions from the very start of the fight. If she had made any attempt at saying the baby was alive I doubt Kenny would even believe her if he even bothered to hear. What I'm getting from the Kenny apologists is that Jane should have just taken the attack like a good little girl because any attempt at defending herself is clearly threatening poor defenseless Kenny.

                  • She had multiple chances to stop the figth, run to the car and show Kenny AJ was alive, but she didn´t. Also that last part is so childish and overblown that I want to believe is joke.

                    • The point of the fight was to show that Kenny never stops his violence and bullying if someone actually stands up to him.

                      That to group with Kenny was the be at the mercy of the whims and notions of a clearly unstable and violent bully.

                      Backing down after she had given him an option to end the fight amicably was just not going to happen.

                      • She already proved what she wanted to prove by that point, continuing the fight was unnecessary. Also running past Kenny towards the car and open the door is hardly backing down. Face it; she wanted to kill Kenny just as much Kenny wanted to kill her.

                        • If the car was really close enough for that to be viable, then Kenny would have or should have found the baby when he went out to look before going full rage mode.

                        • This was nothing to do with bullying....seriously. Who can blame Kenny if hes pissed at you for constantly siding against him.
                          If someone sided against me all the time, Id be pissed at them too! Almost anyone would!

          • Jane left with the baby to get it to safety, she was not looking after number one at all. Clem has proven herself, that darned lazy less than a month old baby hasn't bothered to kill a single zombir yet. Out of the two who was really in more danger?

            Was Jane supposed to leave the baby to help Clem? The fact she came back at all and kept the baby 'relatively' safe means she wasnt after number one. Else she would have left them both.

            She said it was an accident about the baby, she'd been shown warming to it earlier on ib the episode so I never believed she would have killed AJ. She couldn't say he was still alive because as she said to Clem, Kenny would never let AJ go, and he was a danger to AJas well. His blind fits of rage made it very possible he'd get his whole group killed.

      • Jane sticks up for Clementine and respects ALL of her decisions.

      • She doesnt try to brainwash into thinking Kenny is a bad guy, She set up situation where Kenny showed that he is a bad guy. Obviously her original plan was to convince Clementine to come with her, but she didnt know that Kenny would get so violent so it became fight to the end.

        Defending Kenny is like defending Lilly. Both (tried)/murdered someone based on feelings, not facts.

        • are you serious???? do you even think??? wow

          • I could say the same to you. What was the point of your pointless comment?

            • cuz your point is wrong moron, "she didn't know Kenny would get this violent" uhh yeah she fucking did she did that FOR THAT EXACTLY. all that shit was just to prove a "point" everyone gets blinded by Kenny hate they don't see the shit for what it really is. she tricked EVERYONE. even after they crashed or slid the truck he fuckin asked jane if she was ok, when he could've just jumped to say " IT'S AJ OK" not giving a shit about jane. even though that's not a lot, it shows that he still had, or still had little conscious of caring for her, even if it was a tiny bit. and what does jane do, oh lets fucking leave right away he is out of the truck lets leave. and don't bring that bullshit that im blind because im a Kenny fan, guess what I wanted to shoot him first, I didn't play it first cuz TT fucked me on that one but that's another shit, I was yelling to stop Kenny option, I couldn't see well on the screen and I was too focus on the fight, but I knew Kenny needed to be stopped AT THAT moment. but then everything came out and I knew jane fucked me, fucked everyone and cause me to kill someone I loved. and again ill say to you like I said to many, I guess you love getting lied to, because that is all I get from people who defend jane.

              • I mean obviously she knew Kenny would get violent (that was the whole point of provoking kenny), she just didnt expect fight to the death. All she wanted was to show that Kenny isnt safe to be around, so Clem would come with Jane instead. And i dont really care about the plot she had, because i knew in the first place that she was up to something (and i dont really give a shit about the baby anyway). I knew from the start of episode 5 that i must put kenny down, because of the way he behaved and treated others.

                I cant understand how people can just ignore all the shit Kenny has done over these 10 episodes. He gets people killed several times and gets mad at ANYONE who doesnt agree with him, even if its his best friend. Kenny fans must have no real friends, since they dont know how real friends behave.

    • Jane insulted Kenny's family after he insulted her about how she's a loner and only cares about herself.

    • are you serious? jane constantly brought up kenny's family she started all of it

      • After Kenny accused her of being selfish and mocked her for her decision to be left alone.

        Jane asks Clementine to bring Kenny back from the dark side, she even said that she likes Kenny and thinks that he's a good guy while Kenny is the first person to keep talking about how Jane is a bad influence and how she needs to learn respect despite the fact that Kenny was practically bullying Arvo to death, when Arvo didn't have any blood on his hands.

        • yes he did. he brought all those Russians to the group. he has all those fuckers blood, including her sister, and luke, cuz that limited lukes mobility and basically didn't say about a way around.

          • Arvo didn't kill anyone, it was evident that he may have been forced and that he felt guilt for bringing his group over, they may have only bumped into the group accidentally and devised from that point. He played a part in the death of his comrades, yes, but so did Clementine's group, in fact, Clementine's group are the ones that kill all the Russians except for Arvo. As for Luke, he could've gone down even with his leg fixed, Luke's death can be blamed upon Clementine or Bonnie as they are the ones who broke the ice and caused Luke to drown.

  • jane is a psycho the part when kenny goes to get fuel from the cars she says .. "clem we could leave right now," then clem says what abot Aj and then "look i now u are close to him but kenny would never let him go"

    SHE WANTED TO LEAVE A CHILD BEHIND

    • don't you remember sarah and jaime???? she left her sister and want to left sarah too that why i didn't choose her over my bestfriend

      • I guess you don't realize the context that Jane left her sister because she gave up,and that can happen to Sarah either.

        • Jane didn't leave them in cold blood. Cold blood suggests she doesn't care. She obviously cares about people and even humanity a lot. She's afraid. She dragged her sister four states, each morning her sister refused to get up until Jane practically forced her. There was a point in time in which they had to jump across buildings. Jane, nearly crying tells you "What could I do? I couldn't... I couldn't throw her. I couldn't make her... I gave her what she wanted. I left." She left because she couldn't sit there and die too. The same was about to happen with Sarah.

          You're thinking of the needs of one before the needs of all. In that situation Jane was being a realist and a good leader. As a leader sometimes we have to understand that we can't make people try. For instance, S1 Lee let that woman at the inn shoot herself. Did that make him a bad person? No, even though Glen didn't agree with him, and Lily was disgusted. In the end, Lee chose to let that woman make the choice for herself. That's only fair. No matter how precious a gift life is, we can't force it on people.,

          • She may still be capable of caring about people, but she's willing to throw it away when it means putting herself in danger. That's neither admirable nor strong, and it's not a quality a leader should have, unless you want your leader to be Carver.

            Sarah and Jaime aren't the same. What little we're told about Jaime is that she actually did choose to give up. Sarah never chose to give up, but was stuck in a bad place due to her anxiety and her father's recent death. But Jane was nevertheless ready to leave her. That's not what Sarah wanted, Sarah was just incapable of understanding what was going on around her in that moment. But the clincher is when you do save Sarah the first time, and she gets trapped under the rubble later and is clearly screaming for help, Jane immediately says they should just leave her because she wasn't getting out of that. That's not being a realist, that's giving up on a child about to die so you don't risk yourself. Letting Irene shoot herself is entirely different from Sarah's case. She was bitten and doomed to a slow death, so she chose to opt out and be with her family. Lee has the option to choose to let her give up because there's no point in fighting against the inevitable.

            • but she's willing to throw it away when it means putting herself in danger. That's neither admirable nor strong, and it's not a quality a leader should have There is a difference between 'throwing it away' and surviving. You can't force people to live, a leader understands that. It's sad and it's hard, but you can't risk the lives of everyone and yourself for someone who wants to die. It's cruel to everyone and that person. I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you, leaders have to make this hard choice all the time, and the fact that Jane is willing to make it speaks volume on her strength.

              Sarah and Jaime aren't the same. What little we're told about Jaime is that she actually did choose to give up. Sarah never chose to give up, but was stuck in a bad place due to her anxiety and her father's recent death. But Jane was nevertheless ready to leave her. If Jane hadn't decided to leave they all would have died. Luke had been trying for hours, as he tells us. I'm not saying Jane is a good person for this, but this is the ZA they're not sitting in a convenient store or in the normal world where things can be okay.

              She was bitten and doomed to a slow death, so she chose to opt out and be with her family. Lee has the option to choose to let her give up because there's no point in fighting against the inevitable. But see, that IS the same thing. It was realistic, and the realism of it was cruel. Sarah wasn't going to get up from that, you would have died to get her out, and then if you got her out, then what? She's wounded and there's tons of zombies down there, how do you plan on getting her up? That mixed with Sarah's comatose state, that wasn't going to be the first time Sarah was going to turn 'off' essentially. I liked Sarah, I wanted to save her, I did save her the first time and I proved Jane wrong, but by the second time I knew she wasn't going to live, and to send another person down was wrong.

              A leader things of the whole, not one small piece of pie. To risk someone else's life to save one girl who would later die anyway would be bad leadership, no matter how humane. in the ZA being a leader isn't about brownie points, and it's certainly not about being humane. It's being the one who everyone hates because you say the cold truth of the matter.

              My point remains, Jane does care about people, she doesn't 'throw that away' but she's already said she's seen this over and over. Why would she risk more lives for a replay? That's quite literally the definition of insanity. No, it's not pretty, and yes I would have loved for Sarah to survive and get better, but let's be realistic... It wasn't going to happy. Carlos signed her death certificate the moment he decided to hide her from the world.

              I do agree with your point that Irene (Wow, I'm surprised you remembered the name lool) AND Sarah aren't exactly the same thing, Sarah wanted to live, yes, but she wasn't trying to, and that still changes things. Saddened by her father or not, the harshness of the world won't slow down and wait for her, just as it didn't for Clem, it's be silly to suggest the group does. That'd only get them all killed, and Jane (and I) knew that.

            • Well said....! Jane is, and always has been out for number one, I dont undertand how people are blind to that fact.
              Kenny is a good man, who sometimes makes bad decisions - which eat at him piece by piece as we have seen and continue to see. Yet he ALWAYS has the good of the group at heart, and it hurts him when people side against him. Because hes trying to do whats right.
              Jane doesnt care about the group. She cares about Jane. Shes willing to leave people behind. Sarah, the entire group, then Clementine and Kenny.
              That is not someone you can trust your life with

          • Err... that's exactly my point,really.

          • hahaha everyone is BFF's with Jane who we don't know shit about just her her own stories

      • Well thats the problem with Kenny fans, you dont think rationally, you act on silly things called emotions. People like you would end up dead in the walking dead universe. Jane on and my Clem on the other hand, are perfect survivors.
        ps. i would leave a baby behind if i was in that situation.

        • than why you hate carver????? carver was right about some clems

          • Carver, very much like kenny, didnt act rationally. They were maniac dictators. Carver killed a man for silly mistake which wasnt even that big deal. And Kenny had caused so many deaths also. Kenny didnt give a shit about other people, he only cared about himself and people very close to him. He didnt care about ben, omid, crista, random lady surrounded by walkers, Alvin, Larry, Walter, Jane and the list goes on... Problem with Kenny fans, is that they are blind to all the shit Kenny has done. (and i dont think any sane person would be on kennys side, after getting all the facts straight)

            If you side with Kenny, you side Lilly and all the idiots who murder others for no rational reason.

            • List the deaths Kenny caused please

                1. Shawn

                2. Larry

                3. Ben (determinant, indirect, out of mercy)

                4. Walter

                5. Alvin (determinant)

                6. Lee (indirect)

                7. The stranger

                8. The Strangers wife

                9. The Strangers daughter

                10. Rebecca (indirect)

                11. Jane (determinant)

                • Ok, you can't land Lee and the strangers (and family) on Kenny. That was purely by chance, and if were going by that logic then EVERY death in season 2 is Clementines fault. You say if Kenny hadnt taken the supplies from the car, then the stranger wouldnt have lost his family, and gone mad. Taking Clementine and causing Lee to get bitten, and his eventual death. All true, but they all chose to take the supplies. It wasnt just Kenny and Kat, so thats not just on him.
                  And by that logic, if Clem hadnt left her gun on the side in the bathroom, the black girl never would have taken it. Omid never would have been killed, thus Clem would still be with them. And Christa, Pete, Matthew, Walter, Sarita, Luke, NIck, Carlos, Sarah, Becca, Alvin and Jane/Kenny would still be alive. Hell, even Sam the dog!

                  Shawn...he admitted that he froze, he expressed guilt and remorse. Yes he could have tried to help. No guarentee it would have done any good. He looked pretty done for to me. But it wasnt done on purpose. It was an accident. Could have happened to any of the main characters. Hell, depending on how you play Lee, you can do the same!

                  Larry...he was dead. I am qualified in first aid, and CPR CANNOT bring someone back from a heart attack like that. The only thing that can restart the heart after a catastrophic event is a defribulator. WHich they dont have. The teacher reanimated withing minutes of death. From a medical standpoint. Kenny did the only thing that meant they would get out of that room alive. Was it right? Depends on what you mean by right....is it right to smash in someones skull with a salt lick? No! Is it right to prevent a walker reanimating in a locked room and there are no weapons available to defend yourself? Absolutely!

                  Ben... He was within hi rights to hate that kid. Anyone would do the same if you had just found out he caused the death of your entire family. But he didnt harm him. He couldve killed him at any moment, but he didnt. He wanted to. But he didnt. I played through a few times, and more often than not, I drop Ben. Not because Kenny wanted me to, but because I wanted to. He had caused the raid, and he left Clem in danger. I thought he meant it when he asked me to let him go, and I couldnt think of a good enough reason not to. If you dont drop him, Kenny "dies" trying to save him. So not a great point IMO.

                  Walter...yeah, a bad decision. Borne from not knowing his enemy, and a desire to keep his girl safe. He surrendered when he saw it was futile

                  Alvin...as above. If he doesnt die at the lodge, this is nothing to do with Kenny

                  I said my piece about Lee and the stranger

                  Rebecca...how?? Pretty sure she would have died if they had stayed, Luke tells us "She lost too much blood" regardless of if they had stayed put or walked, she would have bled out anyway

                  Jane...tough one. Personally I think Kenny would have stopped the fight if she had just said AJ was alive. God knows he would have left her behind. Maybe tied up so she would eventually starve or get eaten - but Kenny is at heart a good guy, with good reasons. He just lacks communication skills
                  But I know in my heart that he wouldnt kill her in cold blood if she had led him to AJ

                  • If they actually let Rebecca recover from giving a birth, she may have survived. If you decide to stay, she will be alive few more days. If you leave when Kenny wants, she dies sooner. She was in no fit to travel.

                    What Jane did, she saw it necessary in order to keep Clementine safe. It was just matter of time before Kenny went into crazy mode and hurt Clementine. Kenny has already showed that he can ignore Clementines safety because of his anger issues.

                    • I've played where I stay. And she doesn't live any longer. She dies the same place, same way. Nothing was gained at all. The only way to save her was with medical supplies.

                      Kenny has never put Clem in harms way. Jane saves her on th Ice. Not only because Kenny is running after arvo. But because she is the closest to her. Remember what Luke said?
                      No don't. .. The ice is too thin...it'll break!
                      Jane is much much lighter...even if Arvo was never there. And Kenny was already on the shore (as he was) it would make no sense at all for him to go out to her. As for beating Arvo instead of caring for her. Jane had her. He couldn't do anything. What was he meant to do? Snatch he out of her arms and do it himself?
                      He saw she was safe. He was angry about losing someone else, and he took it out on Arvo. Was it the right thing to do? No. We're not saying it was. But he never put her in danger. Not once.
                      He took his anger out on another, but that's not the same thing.
                      And personally, if someone wants to knock my enemies around. Then carry on! Arvo wasn't innocent in this. What he did and said led to the gunfight.
                      Actions have ramifications. He wasn't a good guy, and we made them an enemy the second Jane threatened to kill him.

                      • Thats not the point... You ASK for his help and he ignores you. He doest say anything, he looks at you and then decides to complain about the house and starts beating Arvo.

                      • And the reason Rebecca dies is because they start travelling.

                        • nope(because the writers had it planned)
                          complications , the baby came too early and it didn't feel right she said
                          she would've bled out with or without the meds, she needed surgery
                          but it wouldn't bee zykelator if you didn't blame everything on kenny
                          grow up, because we've almost all finished the game and you just want to troll on the site
                          Alvin died because rebecca cheated or was raped and carver couldn't stand it that it could be alvin's baby

                          • No, i blame the decision to Travel. The fact that if they start moving when Kenny wants just shows that Rebecca dies from traveling. If they leave later as Luke wanted, Rebecca dies later.

                            • so she just suffers more and dies later and they still have to travel. Good move... not.
                              You blame but saying someone is right is no word in your vocabulary
                              Then it was alvin or carver or her genes combined with stress that killed her because of the complications

                              • How can you know what would have happened if they actually let Rebecca recover?

                                • Because she already was caughing and it was freezing ?
                                  and how do you know that she wouldn't die? Because it was not long after aj was born that she died and that was because of complications dying anyway
                                  and you're a troll driuving people away with your BS reasons why you're always right

                        • No-one knows that, she dies on the same log in the same place no matter which option you chose. The fact is, in the days before hospitals and modern medicine, giving birth was life threatening for the woman. And thats what it is in the ZA. Think back to what happened to Lori on the TV show

        • yeah yeah
          you again
          marry jane or something, but don't be surprised if you won't wake up anymore when you get in her way

    • Are y'all Kenny Zealots slow in progressing words? She only said she wanted to leave Kenny,not leave AJ behind,even at the ending if you stay with her,she concerned for him and informed Clem about the formula.

      • Travestron I think you are better than clumping all Kenny zealots into one. Or is insulting the only way you can get your point across?

        • Because it was becoming to the point where all the provocation made by them is ridiculous,liking a character or think he's the best is one thing,but start strutting and stomping on others then there's gonna be a problem.

          • you can watch a vid when he was going to get some gas u will see

            • What she means is that Kenny will never let them leave civilly - as in "Kenny, we are leaving. Let's split the supplies".

              He'll demand to keep the baby on his wild goose chase up north, even though they'll be heading back towards baby formula and safety.

    • She wanted to leave it with Kenny, which is what is best in your opinion anyway, right?

    • What I got from that line is that Jane wanted to leave with Clementine AND AJ at that moment, because if they waited for Kenny he wouldn't let AJ go with Clementine and Jane.

  • I think the difference between Kenny and Jane is that Kenny would lay his life down for the kids. Where Jane will not.
    Jane does what Jane needs to do to survive. She even left her sister to die rather than try and talk her round. Or carry her out. Maybe a mercy. .. but goes to show that only Jane comes first for Jane. I have no problem with that. It's a trait they need to survive.
    But when you try and start turning people against each other. No no no... I don't like that in anyone.
    So when she starts trying to turn Clem against the one person who would give his life for her, just so she gets to try again with little sister 2.0 I knew she wasn't the person to go with if I wanted to survive.

    • Jane has saved more then just a few lives in season 2, so your post is wrong. As for her sister, she's already explained that.

      • Jane said it felt wrong to kill the guy at the beginning of the episode because it was to save them and not her.

        • No. She said it felt wrong because he wasn't a walker.

          • No. She said she tried to pretend it was a walker.

          • She said it was wrong because the guy had never done anything to her.

            • No, Jane directly tells you, "I've never killed a real person before....I tried to pretend he was a walker." (My Clem said: "He was a bad man. He was trying to kill us") to which Jane responds: "I know... But it still feels wrong."

              I think the difference between Kenny and Jane is that Kenny would lay his life down for the kids. Jane laid down her life for Clem and others multiple times. She's the one who pulled Clem from freezing water while Kenny beat on Arvo. She could have lost her arm for that, or even fallen in and drowned herself. She started the fire for Clem too. She came back to save the group when they were being robbed when she heard the gunshot. She helped Clem to save Luke and Sarah. She went down to save Sarah on the deck if you wanted her too as well. I'm sorry, I simply can't see where you're coming from.

              She even left her sister to die rather than try and talk her round. Or carry her out. I think you misunderstand what happened in that situation. Jane states, again directly, that she "carried her [sister] for four states, every morning she told me she wanted to give up, that she wasn't coming." then she tells you they had to jump buildings and her sister refused to jump across. She then says (distraught, in tears, and choking back sobs) "What could I do? I couldn't....I couldn't throw her. I couldn't make her. So I gave her what she wanted. I left." It's cruel to suggest Jane has the power to save everyone and when she doesn't she's somehow cold-hearted. No matter how much I loved someone, I wouldn't lie down and die with them. It would hurt like hell, but I would have left too.

              So when she starts trying to turn Clem against the one person who would give his life for her, just so she gets to try again with little sister 2.0 I don't think she was trying to 'turn Clem into sister 2.0' there was no real suggestion of that. I got the impression she saw Clem resembled her (her sister was weak of will, although she'd never say so). She wanted to protect Clem, and didn't understand what to do. She obviously wasn't good with people or vulnerability. Kenny also wasn't the only one willing to lie down his like. Luke, Jane, and Bonnie (in some cases) were all willing to die for Clem as well. Besides, even if Jane did see Clem as her sister, how is that any different than what Kenny was doing to both Clem and AJ? he calls Clem Duck by accident, then later says he'll raise AJ better than Duck. He compared both of them to his son. This isn't uncommon with people, and it's not wrong. neither of them are at fault for seeing Clem as a kind of 'second chance.' It's a hard thing to understand, but sometimes when we lose people that's our way of justifying why it's okay we might be hurt again. It's a lot easier losing someone you already lost than it is to lose someone new. I know from experience.

              • You need to go back and watch a playthrough or something buddy. She says, and I quote "I've never killed someone who hasn't wrong me in some way."

              • Besides, never killed a real person? Troy. You could say she didn't finish him off, that's true. But she didn't finish off the Ruskie either, Kenny did.

                • I've never killed someone who hasn't wrong me in some way. Yes, she did say that. I'm aware. That's not to say she was upset about saving the group though. That obviously meant she didn't enjoy harming people unless she was provoked. I take it as a good thing. It's good to feel remorse for hurting people, even if that's hard in the ZA.

                  Besides, never killed a real person? Troy. That's a technicality though, and that is a huge difference, even if it doesn't seem like it. I'll use batman as an example (stay with me here, it's relevant xD) Batman doesn't kill people, but in an episode when a train is about to crash the bad guy looks his way, smirks and says "You can't kill me." Batmans reply is simply "No, but I don't have to save you either." That's all Jane did. She didn't save Troy, and that's easier on the conscience than truly being the way to drain someone's life. Truly killing someone is very hard, walking away from someone can make you feel better (even if you're still killing someone).

                  I am aware I left out that line, because I forgot to mention it and decided not to edit it in, I thought my point still conveyed well enough that someone would understand that line wasn't meant to show Jane as a killer or cold blooded (especially with the tone of her voice and body language, which says she's feels bad for killing a man).

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                    CrazyGeorge BANNED

                    Batmans reply is simply "No, but I don't have to save you either.

                    Batman always saves the villain , he is the hero. He wouldn't let someone die.

                    • He did in Batman Begins the movie.

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                        CrazyGeorge BANNED

                        He did in Batman Begins the movie.

                        That movie is bad. It has as much to do with Batman, as the new Startrek has to do with Kirk.

                        • In the animated series Batman was fighting Joker on top of of a tram/train, he punched him, Joker lost his footing, and Batman didn't try to save him. But we're getting off the point. The point was, she knew troy would have killed them, she didn't know what that man was doing. For all she knew it was her group that attacked.

                          • User Avatar Image
                            CrazyGeorge BANNED

                            I loved the Batman the animated series, lol who cares about the TWD at this point, my favorite one is when Bruce wayne gets put in that hot box, and he fights that huge fat guy who tries to throw a turkey leg at batman.

                  • There's a difference between refusing to save someone and shooting them in the dick leaving them for dead.

                    • Yes, there is a difference, but it was also a different situation. My point stands that she herself did not give the killing blow, she let the zombies do it. Like it or not, that's different on the psyche. I have studied psychology, both criminal and normal. I'm not saying it wasn't wrong, I'm saying it's different. Fight that point all you want, it doesn't change the fact.

                      I replied earlier but only used a tag with @ :P, then I realized you wouldn't be able to see that. Oops on me.

                  • Ahh as long as its a technicality is fine. 1.Batman wouldn't shoot someone's cock off and then walk away unblinking. 2. Batman isn't in the walking dead. 3. Are you blind? She shot a guys dick off, she's a nutter. That's called killing someone, she created a chain of events that caused his death (she shoots his dick off then he dies) that's murder.

                  • There's no conflict present here.

                    She feels bad about killing the Russian because he hasn't done her any harm. It's a new feeling for her, she's basically killed someone without knowing precisely why.

                    Troy - it's quite clear he has done some bad shit, including to Jane. Choosing the dick to shoot, probably gives a hint as to what Troy might have done...

                • Troy had wronged her, though, seeing as he was one of the guys enforcing their imprisonment. So she's being consistent when she later says she never killed anyone that hadn't wronged her. And Troy had a gun trained on the whole group. She risked herself by approaching him while trying to distract him long enough to shoot him and let them escape.

                  I'm not sure what your point is.

          • She says she killed him because he posed no threat to her, but she still saved them

      • I agree. she didn't have to come back, she didn't knew Clem until episode 3 but she did save them.

      • Jane was repeatedly encouraging Clem to let people die. She did it with Sarah, she did it with Luke, and had she been around for more deaths she would've probably kept saying "It's too late, give up." Oh yeah I want my Clem to be with her.

  • I don't condone what Jane did at all, but at the same time Kenny has been too hot headed though out both seasons which has lead to just as many problems. This along with Kenny's inability to think lead to my choice of reluctantly shooting him.

  • I don't think Kenny is hot headed. More the fact that he says what needs to be done. Which is usually the last thing anyone one of us wants to do (like smashing Larrys head in)
    So we look for alternatives, whilst Kenny is single minded on what needs to be done. Which makes us call him rash whilst deep down we know it's the right choice. We just like to believe that we would find another * better* way.

  • What a needlessly provocative thread title.

    Personally I thought every scene from the 'house' onwards showed just how unstable and dangerous both of them are. Kenny was a bomb waiting to go off, and clearly capable of anything, even trying to shame Clem's lack of bloodlust when she doesn't like him beating Arvo to a pulp. Meanwhile Jane was manipulative and just as ruthless, just as vicious as Kenny in the fight, and forces Clem to shoot him if you save her. She claims she never meant it to go that far, but wasn't that the point of her little stunt - to prove just what Kenny was capable of? She also risked the baby's life.

    Neither of them seems to be in the right in my opinion.

    • True dat, pick your poison haha.

    • I really doubt that Jane was planning for Kenny to die. If that had been her intention from the start, surely it would've been much easier and safer to just slit his throat when Clem wasn't looking, and then throw the corpse to the walkers to hide the evidence?

      • Really convoluted set up she had there. Manipulate a bigger person into fighting her just so she can kill him and make it look like she was the good guy? Either she had a death wish all of a sudden or she underestimated just how violent Kenny really was.

        The irony here is that she proves herself right... More than even she realized and the Kenny apologists go "its all her fault" showing that they have blinders on when it comes to Kenny. Kenny doesn't deserve to die for lashing out at everyone and turning increasingly violent yet Jane deserves to die for "manipulating" him into becoming violent.

        Gosh could you imagine if Kenny was rational in that moment? She'd have no legs to stand on if he came back and asked her what happened and didn't lay a finger on her.

        I mean gosh the Kenny lovers act like thats what he did anyway!

        • It was not about Jane manipulating Kenny to kill him and show she was the good guy, but about Jane manipulating Kenny into a fight which she didn´t brother to stop-what prevented her for running past Kenny to the car when they were outside the Rest Stop, open the door and show him AJ is alive and let Clem make her mind about both of them instead of trying to kill Kenny with the knife?-when she already ‘proved’ all she had to ‘prove’, so the situation escalated to attempted murder. Jane was the reason for the fight, the one that drew first blood, the only one that could stop the fight and didn´t. So, yes, she deserved to be killed.

          She doesn´t prove anything about Kenny, just that he has violent reactions when is family or those that he cares about get killed or endangered, something that is evident in the two seasons. And is no more that she ever realized, don’t give me that shit.

          Kenny: ‘I fucking kill you.’

          Jane: ‘I knew you would.’

          At really, you call not lashing out a rational response when Kenny lost Sarita less that two days ago and no he thinks AJ died? What did you expect, seriously? That he ask her for every detail and tell her to draw him a diagram? That shows how blind you really are.

          Also Kenny fans don’t act like Kenny stayed calm and asked Jane what happened. We know he has his flaws, but when it comes down to it Jane was more at wrong in that situation. The figth was started by Jane, she drew first blood and could have killed Kenny right there with that slash of the knife even when she had proven all she wanted to prove, showing that she intended to kill Kenny since she came to the Rest Stop.

    • I don't think Jane planned for Kenny to die, but yes, I agree they're both unstable in their own way. I feel Jane is less so than Kenny, as she's closed herself off, but sooner or later she'll become what he became and it'll be her time too. And while we're at it, if Clem doesn't watch herself she'll become dead inside too. It's a hard world. People like Luke and Lee are pretty rare, able to stand all that hardship and still love and feel as strongly as before. I praise them, because they both managed to survive and understand what had to be done, but they didn't take things out of hand. I think they were both the best leaders you could have had. The only problem with Luke was he was still young, and obviously somewhat inexperienced in leading, he still did very well though.

    • Exactly. Both of them have proven themselves to be unstable, and quite frankly not who I personally want Clem to be with. I ended up with Clem being alone with the baby..and that's what I view as the best ending in my opinion. I know being with Kenny gives some people that warm fuzzy feeling (and it did for me too at first) but the guy is losing it. While I view Jane as slightly better mentally, I still don't agree entirely with her mentality. I understand she wanted to prove her point to Clementine about Kenny, but the way she went about it was reckless in my eyes. Besides, my Clem already saw the road Kenny was headed down and the actions she took to try and prove Kenny was going off the deep end was a bit much.

    • I agree with you. For me, the difference between Kenny and Jane was that Kenny was family to me. Kenny would gladly sacrifice himself for the ones he care about. The guy already got his eye beaten out of him to save my life. I wasn't about to shoot him. Horribly emotional and romantic of me, but that's why I picked Kenny. It wasn't about logic.

  • I liked Kenny very much. We were together from season 1. But when he got really mad, I choose to shoot him. (I think I just wanted to make myself cry :D) But when I found out that baby was alive I left Jane. I think this was the best becouse she would never hear arguing again. Nothing would make her sad again. But at some point she can't be alone. Not again after she lost Lee and after she got separated from Christa. If something happens to her she wouldn't make it alone. But Kenny really cared about her. I think Jane cared about her too. ''You're 90% of reason that I came back'' ''I promise that I won't leave you. Not again. Even if I should at lot of times'' she says. When clem ask that If she would leave her behind if she were in any trouble, she answers ''No''. Maybe she got Clementine as her sister and she wanted her for herself and she didn't want Kenny to hurt her even if he never would dare to do so. What I was really sad about is that how much impact this whole situaction got her. They were trying to kill each other and she couldn't do anything and she even cryed to make them stop. That's the most saddest story I have ever seen in my life.

  • Jane hid the baby in a safe place but didnt say anything about it....SHE WANTED A FIGHT!!!

    • Despite putting her knife away, saying leave me alone and saying it was an accident. Yeah, those are real fighting words!!

      /sarcasm

      I didn't hate Kenny, but the amount of spooning he gets on this forum is laughable.

    • She did...everything she said was designed to invite him to violence. She wanted a fight. That was her plan all along. As Kenny said. She could've stopped it at any time. All she had to do was say AJ was alive.
      If I thought she had killed the baby. I'd have done the same...

      • Nope. She wanted Clem to see how dangerous Kenny had become. If you saved Jane she even says she was really sorry and she didn't think he would go that far. But, that's a mute point in my opinion. As it's the beauty of hindsight.

        For what it's worth, if I could choose anyone still living for Clem to be with, it would probably be Molly.

        • Pull any dog's tail long enough and it will bite. Jane wasn't going to stop provoking him until he got violent. But antagonizing someone to that point can happen to anyone prone to anger or not and doesn't prove anything other than that Jane is manipulative.

        • I see no one has posted any examples of how Kenny is dangerous yet...

          • Larry, Ben, Arvo

            No those don't count. Kenny's a fluffy puppy who never hurts anyone.

            • Larry....a dead guy who was about to reanimate
              Ben....who he risked his life to save
              Arvo....who he smacked around after he almost got the entire group killed

              Youre telling me that
              A/ You'd rather deal with a walker, in a locked room, with no weapons
              B/ Would not be angry at someone who caused the death of your entire family
              C/ Would be fine with a guy who tried to get you all killed.

              Ok then!

          • Kenny is dangerous, not because he would purposefully hurt Clem and AJ, but because he doesn't think through and is violent towards everyone else. Clem got shot because of Kenny, that's how dangerous he is.

            His actions scared everyone else so much that they chose to leave in the night rather than face a violent man that can't be reasoned with. And if Clem hadn't been awake, instead of shot she'd have been left with no supplies and no car. Way to go Kenny. Really taking good care of Clem and AJ there.

            That is why Jane wants to get away from Kenny. Because he doesn't think about the consequences of his actions, and not thinking puts Clem at risk.

  • Jane does care about Clem, and so does Kenny. You can see right away Kenny cares about Clem, and Jane likes Clem so much (in her twisted way), that she was willing to let a baby get killed and have her shoot Kenny just to be with her. If she's a replacement for her sister, that I don't know. I still don't agree with what she did.

    • I agree. But that makes Jane far more dangerous and unstable than Kenny ever was.

    • Indeed. There is just no way Clem should stay with anyone of them. One of them kills your best friend so she can have you all for herself, and the other is so unstable he puts everyones lives at risk.

    • That is a very black and white way to see this. Both of them were very willing to do awful things to keep Clementine. I disagree with the notion that Jane is more dangerous than Kenny. She's more frightening, that's for certain, but more dangerous? No. She's shown time and time again she wouldn't hurt Clem, Kenny emotionally manipulated Clementine (at least mine) plenty of times. He scared me. I thought he'd hurt Clem, or let her die when he was too busy beating someone up (such with the water). I never felt that way with Jane. The only time Jane put Clem in any danger was when Clem wanted it and they had to save groupies.

      As for the baby, that one is tough for me. Part of me wants to say it was fine, another part is worried what could have happened instead of what did happen, but really, I know realistically that could have happened with them there too.

      Jane was doing what she thought she had to in order to protect Clem. She wasn't acting anymore selfishly than Kenny was his idealism.
      And before anyone brings up the point that Kenny was 'correct' about the shelter, I can argue that Jane was 'correct' that the baby would be safe. As in: things could have ended very very different.

      All in all, what I'm saying here is, everyone is fighting for their sanity here, everyone does selfish things and everyone makes mistakes. Jane did something rash, but we can't condemn her for that unless we're willing to condemn Kenny for all the rash things he did in both S1 and S2 than got people killed or wounded or nearly killed.

  • Couldn't agree more, I was starting to warm up to Jane/slowly forgive her as the episode went on but that stunt with the baby showed how unstable and selfish she truly is. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    • Exactly. She used that as the perfect opportunity to off Kenny.

      • Uh, no.

        She wasn't trying to 'off' Kenny, more convince Clem that Kenny is seriously unstable.

        She explains, when you save her, that she wanted to show Clem that she didn't HAVE to stay with Kenny. If she planned to kill him, she wouldn't need to prove that, she'd just do it.

        She also puts away her knife, and Kenny attacks her again. She basically said 'right, that's enough' and he slammed her into a window.

      • Yes... That makes perfect sense. Piss off a man bigger than her and a good 80 pounds heavier than her so she can kill him.

        Why didn't she just slit his throat in his sleep and say walkers go him?

This discussion has been closed.