Maintaining Clem's Humanity

I, like 30ish% of players, chose to leave with Sarita when it came to Carver's death. We all remember Chuck's speech. You ARE either living or you are not. But, enjoying death changes you. Did anybody else remember Lee (determitantly) say "Killing is bad no matter what."? We saw how much it weighed down on Lee, because Lee still had his humanity. I think 205, "No Going Back", is talking about Clem's humanity and sanity. The choices you make with her determine what kind of person she is, and staying back to watch Carver get his brains bashed in will almost undoubtedly cause Clem some mental problems.
«13

Comments

  • Well I'm not sure Mental problems but I"M SO GLAD to FINALLY see someone else who chose to walk away.

    I didn't want Clem to see that...
  • I walked away because i didn't want Clementine to see that, however if it was me personally i would of shot him with the AK-47 and wouldn't of had a second thought in the Zombie Apocalypse He is just too dangerous to keep alive.

    Well I'm not sure Mental problems but I"M SO GLAD to FINALLY see someone else who chose to walk away. I didn't want Clem to see that...

  • Someone bright here stated that a lot of people might wanted to stay cause they, as a player want it to see that death, not as Clementine. Im seeing here user names that says how they enjoyed watching Carver to die, but a week earlier said how Troy is super bad for hitting tiny poor little Clementine.
  • I also walked away. If its unnecessary violence why would you have Clem stay and watch.
  • I didn't want Clem to have to do it either, but you can't always think of it in the terms "I don't want Clem to have to".

    In the end, most people did it because they wanted to save a life.
  • You don't have to enjoy death to see it. Death changes you, it's true, but in a lot of ways it makes you stronger. It's hard to live in the zombie apocalypse, and it's even harder to grow up in the middle of it, without a moral compass to guide you. Lee was Clem's moral compass, but Lee faced death every day and it didn't change him in the end.
    "You're either living or you're not". You don't have to be a stone cold killer, but in TWD universe, death is everywhere. You're going to face it eventually, so you might as well get used to it now. Getting Clem to watch Carver's death was one of the best things I've chosen, because I don't want her to turn into another Sarah, and be emotionally weak.
  • Save a life?

    I thought it was watching someone lose a life XD

    I didn't want Clem to have to do it either, but you can't always think of it in the terms "I don't want Clem to have to". In the end, most people did it because they wanted to save a life.

  • I admittedly chose to stay at first because I was curious. But I've since retconned it; with the Clem I was playing, it would be much more fitting for her to walk away.

    Well I'm not sure Mental problems but I"M SO GLAD to FINALLY see someone else who chose to walk away. I didn't want Clem to see that...

  • edited August 2014
    This is exactly what I said before, but worded differently. I agree with you.

    You cant be afraid or innocent it this world, because those who are don't survive.

    You don't have to enjoy death to see it. Death changes you, it's true, but in a lot of ways it makes you stronger. It's hard to li

  • Clem has already proven to be emotionally strong. Carver would be the kind of person to stay back and watch somebody he hates die, even when it isn't needed. Clem, if she does things just because they would make her "strong" when they are needlessly cruel, will become no different than Carver one day.

    You don't have to enjoy death to see it. Death changes you, it's true, but in a lot of ways it makes you stronger. It's hard to li

  • Clem didnt exactly watch for too much pleasure. She wasn't smiling or cheering on Kenny or anything like that. She just felt like she had to watch just like Carver watched everyone else who he killed suffer. I chose to see and I wanted to let Kenny know I was on his side
  • What do you think would happen if kill someone in front of a child.....

    Hrm....
    PTSD?

    You don't have to enjoy death to see it. Death changes you, it's true, but in a lot of ways it makes you stronger. It's hard to li

  • I chose to leave because I wanted to prove Carver wrong. Clem and him are not the same.
  • Well Clem at least knows how to survive (Thanks Lee!)

    She already dealt with death Omid,her parents,Lee,ETC

    So IMO she didn't need to see that....

    You don't have to enjoy death to see it. Death changes you, it's true, but in a lot of ways it makes you stronger. It's hard to li

  • Watching Carver's face disappear is nothing compared to the things she COULD have seen.

    Clem has already proven to be emotionally strong. Carver would be the kind of person to stay back and watch somebody he hates die,

  • edited May 2014
    I ended up choosing to have her watch his death in the heat of the moment, as up to that point I had been playing her as about as goody goody as I could and it was almost like she needed the closure, to make absolutely sure he was dead after all the pain that he had caused her. I'm not sure if I'll go back and change it or not as that little bit of an edge might actually be good for what was otherwise about as good of a character as I could get.
  • exactly,

    I said something longer and with more detail, I will try to find it and post it here.

    Watching Carver's face disappear is nothing compared to the things she COULD have seen.

  • What do you expect in the ZA? Of course she'll have PTSD. That's just the norm.
    CrazyGeorge posted: »

    What do you think would happen if kill someone in front of a child..... Hrm.... PTSD?

  • edited May 2014
    here, I found it:

    "he slapped clem in my play through, he was cruele, evil, and sick and tried to manipulate me.

    he deserved to die and I watched him die without pity.

    and you cant stay innocent or afraid in this world, because the innocent and afraid ones die. and clem cant be afraid or innocent anymore. Im not saying she has to be a cold heart murder like carver to survive. im saying that she can be afraid to kill someone when needs to. because if she is it could mean life and death. and watching carver die might give her that strength to kill whoever that is.."

    she needs to be ready for stuff like that. she cant be afraid.

    Clem has already proven to be emotionally strong. Carver would be the kind of person to stay back and watch somebody he hates die,

  • I'm glad you understand. Weakness is a death sentence in TWD.

    here, I found it: "he slapped clem in my play through, he was cruele, evil, and sick and tried to manipulate me. he de

  • im glad someone thinks like I do also..

    I'm glad you understand. Weakness is a death sentence in TWD.

  • At first I stayed because I was hoping that Clementine would have been able to speak up during this scene, and perhaps tell Kenny off (or tell Carver that he deserves it), and tell Kenny that with this action, he's on the path to becoming a man like Carver. But then I redid that because the walk away option was apparently the choice that I should have gone with.
  • this sounds like a line from carver

    I'm glad you understand. Weakness is a death sentence in TWD.

  • edited May 2014
    It's not like she hasn't seen much worse stuff happening all the time. Why attempt to hide the bad stuff from her now?
    She only survived because she's hardened.

    I felt that watching Carver die would only make her stronger. She needs to be prepared to deal with gruesome stuff. With stuff no one else wants to deal with. It doesn't exactly mean she is losing her humanity. She can use that strength to protect the ones she loves. She needs that strength.

    To make tough decisions if it means it'll save the ones she cares about. Let's face it, if Kenny hadn't killed Carver, he WOULD have come back for the group. And this time, he would kill everyone. He was even willing to kill Rebecca and his baby rather than letting them escape. Clem has to understand that.
  • what is more important?

    to continue to live?
    or to make sure that we deserve to live?

    This is exactly what I said before, but worded differently. I agree with you. You cant be afraid or innocent it this world, because those who are don't survive.

  • I was hoping that she would give some awesome monolog to Carver, look at Kenny, say "kill him," and walk away like a champ while Kenny bashes his head in... or Luke could have shot him and this could have been avoided. Oh well, we got what we got. Let's see how it plays out in the end.

    Well Clem at least knows how to survive (Thanks Lee!) She already dealt with death Omid,her parents,Lee,ETC So IMO she didn't need to see that....

  • That's up to you. Survival, in my opinion, comes before anything, except for family.
    Jexx21 posted: »

    what is more important? to continue to live? or to make sure that we deserve to live?

  • What if your family are people who believe that everyone else should die because they can't be trusted?

    Family is important yes, but like anyone, they can go off the deep end.

    That's up to you. Survival, in my opinion, comes before anything, except for family.

  • Then that's their problem. The only thing that matters in the end is what YOU think, other people's opinions don't matter, even family.
    Jexx21 posted: »

    What if your family are people who believe that everyone else should die because they can't be trusted? Family is important yes, but like anyone, they can go off the deep end.

  • edited May 2014
    Clem was there when Kenny killed Larry.

    Clem was there when they were fed Mark's legs.

    Clem was there when Lilly shot Doug or Carley.

    Clem saw Duke (Duck... Keeping "Duke" for the lulz) deteriorate right before her eyes.

    Clem saw her own parents as walkers, and was then forced to take in the grief of Lee dying ontop of that, no more than 10 minutes later.

    I think Kenny killing Carver isn't the worst thing she has seen up to this point. At least Carver still has his skull intact. Larry, on the other hand... Powerful chin. One of the greats.
  • edited August 2014
    I'm not saying she needs to be a murdered and kill everyone she sees, but at one point she might have to kill someone that does something horribly bad but she doesn't want to kill them. But in order for her to live or save many others, she might have to.

    So I want her to be ready for that.

    Kind of like carol in the show. Lizzie was loosing it, Carol didn't want to kill Lizzie, but Carol knew that Lizzie would hurt others, so Carol had the strength to do it. potentially saving her, Tyrees, and the baby.

    What if carol didn't have the strength to do that? What if she never put her husband down or saw her daughter die, that's were she got the strength from,. That's were she got the knowledge of knowing what HAS to be done.
    Jexx21 posted: »

    What if your family are people who believe that everyone else should die because they can't be trusted? Family is important yes, but like anyone, they can go off the deep end.

  • "She only survived because she's hardened"

    this is how I feel.
    Pride posted: »

    It's not like she hasn't seen much worse stuff happening all the time. Why attempt to hide the bad stuff from her now? She only

  • Exactly. Carol is a PERFECT example of the strength Clementine needs. From battered housewife to survivor, from little girl to survivor, it makes no matter. It's the name of the game.

    I'm not saying she needs to be a murdered and kill everyone she sees, but at one point she might have to kill someone that does so

  • You make a fair point, but seeing something she doesn't need to doesn't help her. Now, Clem has a say in the matter of what she has to see, and for Clem to choose to witness a brutal death when it was completely avoidable and unnecessary will certainly make her feel more like she is like Carver.
    Itchy_Tasty posted: »

    Clem was there when Kenny killed Larry. Clem was there when they were fed Mark's legs. Clem was there when Lilly shot Do

  • No matter how bad I wanted to watch carver die I thought to myself do I really want to see that? So I walked away the first time I played this is the way I would actually do if I were in that situation.For the people who play this game and play it how they will actually do it if they were in that situation, kinda make me worry this game reflects on you and shows how you would be in an apocalypse. Yeah you have to be mean sometimes to survive but is this what we've really come to? This game is amazing and freighting if you think about it. So yeah I'll keep my humanity thanks.
  • i don't watch the show or read the comics so I need better examples

    I get what you mean but there's a difference between an execution shot and beating someone's face to nothing with a crowbar.

    hell, when Kenny shot Carver's knees I thought he was just going to pull a John Reese and leave him like that. He probably would have died anyway.

    I'm not saying she needs to be a murdered and kill everyone she sees, but at one point she might have to kill someone that does so

  • I stayed to watch, but in the moment it was less because I wanted to see him die, and more because I wanted to make *sure* he was dead. As in, I didn't want him to somehow wrestle the crowbar from Kenny and take the upper hand or something. That being said, I don't think Clementine watching the kill was necessarily a bad thing (Lee might have disagreed), and I don't think it's the worst thing she's seen by a long shot.

    Not to mention, from my own point of view, watching my favorite character bash in the skull of a psychopath who killed innocent people and beat the shit out of said character? More satisfying than it should be.
  • I wish there was an option to say I will never be like you as Kenny started to beat him
  • No. Watching something isn't the same as acting it out. What Carver said in his office, that the two were alike, he was wrong. He was trying to manipulate Clem into being with him, much like how he manipulated Reggie into feeling safe within the prison. Clementine is brave, which is why she kept her nerve when she first met Carver in the cabin. It wasn't because she was a hardened killer. She's desensitized, calm in the face of grotesque imagery. Still, even when Kenny is clubbing Carver in the face, she flinches. Kenny is the person who is losing his "humanity," a fact no one can deny with the present Sarita situation.

    Disagreed. Watching someone die, not preventing it, isn't the same as acting it out. It doesn't make one a psychopath. Clementine has already killed, at least in a determinant means. The stranger was killed by Clem, but she felt unstable afterwards. Distressed. The moment we see her kill again, if that ever happens, then we can start assuming she'd be losing her innocence.

    We've seen Lee watch people die, yet every choice for him to kill someone after the zombie apocalypse was determinant. Does it make him "less human?" Would it make Clem "less human" once she eventually does kill someone else? How old does she need to be before it's okay for her to take a life within TWD's universe?

    You make a fair point, but seeing something she doesn't need to doesn't help her. Now, Clem has a say in the matter of what she ha

  • I agree. That's why I chose to stay the first time around thinking you would have some choice of trying to stop Kenny, or to antagonize Carver.

    I wish there was an option to say I will never be like you as Kenny started to beat him

Sign in to comment in this discussion.