In Harm's Way Defense Masterpost

124

Comments

  • edited September 2014

    First, thank you for your answer, some good points you have here. Take my like.

    About no taste of fear accompanying the player, I strongly disagree. Lifeless Alvin in Carver's office, sick pleasure of witnessing Carver's beating, seeing the zombie biting Sarita's hand? I find many frightening, pulse-pounding scenes in Episode 3

    Then again, I have to mention details.

    there is no chance for Clementine to actually get caught during the scenes when she's sabotaging Carver's community.

    Actually, it is. When Clementine returned to the comic store and found out Luke isn't there, Troy begins calling out for her. If she leaves the store, Troy will send her back to the yard.

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    If she stays searching in the comic store, Troy will smack Clementine across her mouth.

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    I got smack. That made me dislike Troy and I found myself happy when Jane shot him.

    If slapping 11-old-girl ain't a big deal, I don't know what is.


    I actually like the zombie scene in the store.

    If you listen closely during Carver's speech (right before Carlos slapped Sarah), you'll hear Carver saying:

    -"Kenneth will be taking over Reggie's duties outside the walls and Michael will continue on showing his valuable."

    This explains what was Reggie's job and how he got bit (theoretically), and like you said, give Carver another reason (understandable one) to beat up Kenny.

    there is no actual harm in my way.

    I like how you put this. :)


    Let's talk Carver. I have the weird feeling I'm Carver's Defender Number One.

    You can easily justify his behavior, if we'd place the unborn baby at the top of his priorities list.

    • torturing Carlos, Luke and Kenny - Carlos and Luke were leaders of Cabin Group (more or less); they admitted that they felt like prisoners and wanted to escape beacuse of that, meaning they persuaded others (including Reggie) to oppose Carver's rules and most likely destroyed some part of Hardware's building, what could cause possibly zombie attack (huge thread to whole community).

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    Alvin killed George (George could be anyone, Carver's friend, brother, beloved berries keeper), Carlos did split on Carver's face in front of his own men, Kenny blithely admitted he had the stolen walkie. They humiliated him and presented him as a weakened leader.

    • murdering Walter - Kenny killed Johnny, Carver killed Walter. He might have killed someone else instead of Walter, but he didn't know anything about him, except he gave shelter to people Carver was after. Therefore, he didn't want to start killing off Cabin Group, until something worse happens - whole second chance faith.

    • treating women like his property - this sentence describes Carver's character perfectly. He was obsessed with the baby and he would do anything to get Rebecca (as a result), even if he'd threat her that he'll kill the baby if she force him to do so.

    I don't think Carver was supposed to be good in any possible way, he was just more gray back at 202. We don't know about his past and that makes it more difficult to understand a person he was.

    Carver's death was used to develop Kenny's story - and Kenny's plot was used to develop Clementine one. Some people say Carver was killed off and it made them feel disappointed, but let us see that we all thought he would be the villian of the whole season, and make his final appearance in Episode 5 (Stranger). It was a major plot twist here.


    Sorry if that was long.

    Bokor posted: »

    I like the use of images and the effort put into this, but I frankly disagree. For one thing, I actually felt no urgency or fea

  • Thanks, I did my best. :)

    hihitwd posted: »

    Great thread. I don't know why so many people hated In Harm's Way, I loved it. You take in account little details and it's nice to

  • beloved berries keeper

    :D

    fallandir posted: »

    First, thank you for your answer, some good points you have here. Take my like. About no taste of fear accompanying the player,

  • edited September 2014

    There's a difference between depicting unpleasant scenes and actually putting the protagonist in danger. For example, there is no real consequence to Clementine acting as defiant and hateful towards Carver and his goons beyond a couple of slaps - you never actually get a 'game-over' or get killed as a result of your petulance. Seeing Clementine get hurt only makes me want Carver dead even more, rather than convince me that pissing him off is a bad idea.

    I do like, however, that you pointed out the possibility that Reggie actually had his arm amputated as punishment rather than to save his life. It'd explain why neither Sarita or Kenny actually thought that amputation was a good idea.

    fallandir posted: »

    First, thank you for your answer, some good points you have here. Take my like. About no taste of fear accompanying the player,

  • Got it, but this rule refers to the whole Season, right? Clementine being a protagonist of the story. In my opinion Episode 3 wasn't about encourage a player to finding a way to kill Clementine and putting her in the fake danger, it was about how ruthlessness and the desire to just survive lead to unavoidable death.

    Bokor posted: »

    There's a difference between depicting unpleasant scenes and actually putting the protagonist in danger. For example, there is no

  • soon...

    wait, we're gonna get DLC?

  • Lee was kinda like Carlos. He only taught Clem because Chuck is the one who gave him the advice about her survival, he was the smartest homeless man ever.

    fallandir posted: »

    Yes, that what I was thinking. Carlos is so underestimated. He and Sarah could be reference to season 1, represent a father-dau

  • The Reggie arm part is most likely true

  • It was good, but i still think 201 is the best of the season, even though i can't stand it because i've played it too much. That's what happens.

  • Alt text

    Fantastic post, you make a lot of great points in there.

  • yet again a another revival of a thread

  • Let's celebrate then! Anyone have some balloons?

    AGentlman posted: »

    yet again a another revival of a thread

  • I´ll say, that talk with Carver in the office was one of the best moments of the season, imo.

  • Before I start, I'm gonna be THAT guy and Point this out.

    It's Defense, Not Defence.

    Now that My Grammar Nazi-ing is finished, Let me Make a calm Counter argument.

    The Adults Are Talking via People actually talking to each other, without the little girl forcing all the conversations.

    That was pretty much one of My favorite Parts of episode 3, How Clem ACTUALLY felt Helpless and Like a Kid, and not an adult. They talked like Normal people, which was Something they should Have kept from season 1.

    Three words - great character development.

    Okay, I agree, Bonnie Had some great development, But by the end of Episode 4, They took all of her development, Threw it out the window, and every Word that came out of her Mouth was Bullshit. Not to mention, Bonnie may have great Character Development, But that's not gonna stop her from Being an all around shitty Character.

    Again, majority of people was hella suprised how Bonnie acted in No Going Back. Here's the reason why - TellTale wanted us to like her. She repeatedly tries to apologize to Clementine for lying to her at the lodge and causing people to be killed. Details are the key here - she helped Clementine if she is hit by Carver or Troy, she was worried about Luke, stopped Carver from beating down Kenny, she also was looking after Rebecca during her pregnancy. I'm sure you noticed that every single member of Howe's community (except some of the Cabin Group) were calling Carver "Bill", so does Bonnie. After Clem told her about Luke, she called him "Carver" for the first time. She fooled many and that was pretty good writting.

    First, Bonnie's actions In No Going Back aren't very surprising, I swear she had Multiple personality Disorder or something, Bonnie was being a huge B**ch as always, and That's what got people angry at her in the first place.

    Second, She keeps apoligizing to Clem because she's a Little girl, and Bonnie May be a B**ch, but I know that every woman who has Come across Clem, (With the exception of Brenda, Tavia and Natasha) Have all fallen in love with her and treated her like Family. Of course Bonnie would Be apoligetic.

    Third, Just because she starts Calling him Carver doesn't make her any less of a F*ck up. And it's still a symbol of respect to call your surperior by their Last name.

    KENNY: Yeah, everyone did see Kenny sacrificing himself to save Clem - it's not up for discussion here - but have you noticed the little things?

    I hope you Notice that, Yes, Kenny sacrificed his Life for Clem, and He's a great character. But from what Happened in Season 2, It's Clear that Kenny finished his development in Season 1.

    In both seasons, he:

    • Started off as a Pretentious asshole with Respect for only 3 or 4 people.
    • Was nice to those People, Until they disagreed.
    • Got captured and Only thought about Stupid ways to escape.
    • Was sheltered and Very Bitchy after his spouse died.
    • Yelled at the Protagonist for something that wasn't Their fault.
    • Gets his head back in the game, But still Bullying people.
    • Finally begins to care about People
    • And Makes a Heroic sacrifice Near the end to Redeem himself.

    Kenny is the same he was in Season 1, But he's still great.

    Episode 3 went straight down and antagonized him more, he started to presenting himself as cruel dictator whose motivations are difficult to understand. Carver was more ambiguous at the beginning, simply because he wanted to show Clementine his "brighter" shade. He shot Walter for the man he knew being killed, and tortured someone in order to find Rebecca (woman carring the baby he was obsessed with). All of his morals could possibly be justified, and nothing is overdone here. When he slaps Clem, it was his way to learn not to talk back - it happens again with Sarah interrupting his speech. We know he sees strength in numbers, which explain why he's willing to forgive the cabin group. Problem with seeing his grey parts is his ruthlessness and brutality (enough to call him an oppressor), but still, he believes in physical punishment and he has sense of protecting his family from weakness (which gets you killed in the world like this).

    You sir, Have my eternal Respect on these forums, For perfectly describing Him.

    That is all.

  • DeltinoDeltino Moderator

    I know this thread is old (although these points are all still perfectly valid. Far as I'm concerned, age doesn't matter if you're making a good point/argument), but I need to be that guy and point that that Kenny talking about a guy that tried cutting his arm off happens regardless of the choice to take Lee's arm.

    I lean on the belief that he was actually talking about someone else he witnessed do it in the time between seasons.

    Anyways, since I haven't seen this thread before, I'll just say good on you for being one the few people that sees the redeeming qualities of In Harm's Way, and more for actually defending it. The episode gets a bad wrap by quite a few, but it's far from being a terrible episode.

  • I believe it was about 3/4 am when I was writing this post, so you aren't the first grammar nazi I've met here. :> Thanks for pointing it out.

    The way how Bonnie refer to Carver by his last name for the very first time is simple the step forward out of their close relationship. She addmited she respected Carver as the leader of a prospering community. She could even feel something, considering she used to fall for the older guys (Leland). After Reggie died, it was the breaking point when Bonnie slowly started to see Bill's darker side and decided to help Cabin Group, this sudden change in her thinking was surely a shock, yet I've noticed she only became more cold and determined in her words, which could be enough reason to believe her.

    Well I'm not gonna defend Kenny in general, I don't want to provoke anyone by starting another discussion about him, for me he was very expressive and distinctive, character you could either love or hate, one of those people you won't forget even after you had finished the game ages ago.

    You sir, Have my eternal Respect on these forums, For perfectly describing Him.

    I'm actually a girl, but thank you, I did my best. Carver is my favourite character and I think I understand him well enough.

    Before I start, I'm gonna be THAT guy and Point this out. It's Defense, Not Defence. Now that My Grammar Nazi-ing is finishe

  • I know it's an oversight, Telltale probably assumed most of players cut off Lee's hand. And yeah, back when I wrote this, "In Harms Way" was leading in the competition of the worst TWD episode. I guess now Amid The Ruins inherited the title.

    Deltino posted: »

    I know this thread is old (although these points are all still perfectly valid. Far as I'm concerned, age doesn't matter if you're

  • Thanks bro. :>

    Fantastic post, you make a lot of great points in there.

  • I'm actually a girl, but thank you

    Huh, I never would have guessed with the PP of a stacheless Lee. Sorry to have Offended you by calling you a dude. XD

    fallandir posted: »

    I believe it was about 3/4 am when I was writing this post, so you aren't the first grammar nazi I've met here. :> Thanks for p

  • Also, You make fair points, especially with Kenny. The last thing we need is another Kenny flame war on our hands. XD

    fallandir posted: »

    I believe it was about 3/4 am when I was writing this post, so you aren't the first grammar nazi I've met here. :> Thanks for p

  • In harms way is still the worst episode out of the whole series but thats just me

  • I've got to say, this was well placed together.
    ;)

    But in the end, it's just personal preference.

  • You didn't offend me, many people call me dude, I like it. :>

    I'm actually a girl, but thank you Huh, I never would have guessed with the PP of a stacheless Lee. Sorry to have Offended you by calling you a dude. XD

  • edited May 2015

    It was my favorite episode from Season 2. It turned Kenny into a badass, the episode as it progressed was building towards a final confrontation between Carver and Clem's group (besides the hate for Carver grew bigger and bigger as the episode progressed), had lots of epic moments (Clem's slapping at the beginning (don't you dare touch Clem!), Reggie's death (I'm gonna kill this Carver dude!), Clem's stealth missions, remembering Lee (Lee figured that out), Alvin's last stand, the reunion in Carver's office (I'm not like you / I wish Kenny had killed you), Kenny's beating and recovery, Kenny's revenge, Jane's "crotchshot", the chaos within the herd, then the choice of cutting Sarita's arm off or not in slow motion, it ended greatly, though if it didn't even matter after all) and finished Carver for good. It felt the most Walking Dead episode of the Season for me.

  • edited May 2015

    It's Defense, Not Defence.

    Actually it depends on what English you speak, if you speak American English then yes it is defense, but British English is actually defence.

    No I'm not an English teacher, Google supplied me with this information. :p

    Before I start, I'm gonna be THAT guy and Point this out. It's Defense, Not Defence. Now that My Grammar Nazi-ing is finishe

  • I suppose...

    Green613 posted: »

    It's Defense, Not Defence. Actually it depends on what English you speak, if you speak American English then yes it is def

  • Why would it offend anyone?

    I'm actually a girl, but thank you Huh, I never would have guessed with the PP of a stacheless Lee. Sorry to have Offended you by calling you a dude. XD

  • edited May 2015

    I should probably be studying for finals, but... :/

    A. Season 1 Flashbacks:

    Having Season 1 flashbacks is not an indication of good writing. If anything, it shows how the writers had to bank on the players’ memories of season 1 to keep their attention. Basically why Kenny returned.

    Honestly, some of the references to season 1 felt really dumb because they simply did not fit the context. The jewelry store reference was tolerable since Clem was just talking to herself, but Kenny talking about Molly was completely out of nowhere. “There was a girl back at Crawford who used church bells to get around” he says, in a tone that indicates everyone already knows about Crawford somehow despite the fact that no one besides Clem has any reason to know what the hell Kenny’s talking about. Was Kenny talking just to her?

    This was an example of a call back that felt forced and out of place because it was incredibly obvious how it was directed to the player, not the other characters.

    The tape and hatchet is almost certainly reused assets, especially since there is no other hint that the compound is affiliated with Crawford in any way. By this logic, the corpse of the man who shot himself in No Going Back along with his wife somehow flew to North Carolina, since you can see his corpse at the river in All That Remains.

    B. Realistic Elements:
    The Adults Are Talking via People actually talking to each other, without the little girl forcing all the conversations.
    Nobody asks Clem what she thinks, cough she's not Lee cough. The conversation will go on even if she stays silent.*

    Everyone does, however, feel no qualms at all about making her do all the dangerous tasks. It was fine in season 1 since all the adults very clearly felt incredibly uncomfortable about making Clem do dangerous things like crawl through the vent or check the train station. In season 2, no one seems even slightly concerned with having the kid do everything, besides Mike and (very inconsistently) Luke. I laughed out loud when Rebecca casually told Clem to bring Alvin with her. Yeah, sure, the little girl will somehow carry the +200 pound, unconscious, heavily injured man up to the roof and down the skylight.

    The group was taken and locked out in the pen, which is an area where those who break Carver's rules are sent to earn their way back. How much stuff could you do in prison-like place? We were supposed to feel restrained, to appreciate every moment spent outside and every single little conversation.

    But it didn’t even feel “prison-like”. The only labour we did was pick berries and carry nails. It felt like I was doing chores, not manual labour at a restrictive prison camp. The fact that the compound felt incredibly empty, and how more often than not Clem was allowed to go wherever completely unsupervised just made me feel like I was in a closed mall, not a prison.

    Great Character Development/Changes That Have Had Occurred

    REGGIE:

    Most underestimated character in the whole Season/s. Hesitant maimed person who tries to hide his fears. He then explains that he lost his arm because a walker bit him while working on the wall and his arm was quickly taken off by Mike, however Mike never confirmed he did it. Anyway, he could have lost his arm due to a punishment.

    Admittedly an interesting concept, but the fact that the game itself never does anything with this potentially interesting concept is what makes Reggie’s character even more of a disappointment. This is the reason people dislike Episode 3. There was sooooo much wasted potential. 400 Days characters, anyone?

    Again, majority of people was hella suprised how Bonnie acted in No Going Back. Here's the reason why - TellTale wanted us to like her. She repeatedly tries to apologize to Clementine for lying to her at the lodge and causing people to be killed. Details are the key here - she helped Clementine if she is hit by Carver or Troy, she was worried about Luke, stopped Carver from beating down Kenny, she also was looking after Rebecca during her pregnancy. I'm sure you noticed that every single member of Howe's community (except some of the Cabin Group) were calling Carver "Bill", so does Bonnie. After Clem told her about Luke, she called him "Carver" for the first time. She fooled many and that was pretty good writting.

    That's... not character development. This doesn’t actually explain Bonnie’s behaviour at all. Bonnie acted nice because Telltale wanted us to like her? That’s like saying Carver was evil because Telltale wanted us to hate him. That’s not an in-universe justification for anything.

    Most of you probably felt sorry for him, because he had to slap his own daughter. That's the reason why you didn't notice how much he changed. Back in the truck he was talking about Carver and how dangerous he was. Let us remember he got separated from the rest of the group and I'm sure Carver talked with him off-screen. See the difference?

    Back in the truck he was talking about how no one should do anything because that would be reckless and that they need to keep a level head. This coming from the man who spit on Carver’s face last episode. His character started being inconsistent long before Carver had the opportunity to threaten him at the compound.

    I'd say Sarah became afraid of him.

    Why…?

    Rebecca was hugging her because Carlos was busy trying to keep Sarita from getting killed...

    Yeah, everyone did see Kenny sacrificing himself to save Clem - it's not up for discussion here - but have you noticed the little things?
    He didn't help Clem when walkers attacked them and he feels bad about it.
    Clementine got hurt and he wasn't close enough to help her.

    I don’t see how this is complexity. Kenny feels bad he didn’t protect a little girl? Well, yeah… of course.

    Lack of heroism was very importat in Luke's appearance in Episode 3. He was tired and hungry, he got caught, he caused a lot bad things. There is humane part of Episode 3.

    Really, ignoring Luke’s heroism was the real mistake here. The game really downplayed the significance of what Luke did, travelling across the state on foot to rescue his friends, yet no one seems at all impressed by his loyalty or dedication. The group’s just like “Oh cool, Luke’s here. Wonder how he managed that. Eh, whatever”.

    There was also no option to call Kenny out on misjudging Luke so horribly, or for calling him “a turd” for literally no reason.

    When he appeared, we all were under impression that Carver was smart villian who changed suddenly into brain-washed bully.

    >

    Episode 3 went straight down and antagonized him more, he started to presenting himself as cruel dictator whose motivations are difficult to understand. Carver was more ambiguous at the beginning, simply because he wanted to show Clementine his "brighter" shade. He shot Walter for the man he knew being killed, and tortured someone in order to find Rebecca (woman carring the baby he was obsessed with). All of his morals could possibly be justified, and nothing is overdone here. When he slaps Clem, it was his way to learn not to talk back - it happens again with Sarah interrupting his speech. We know he sees strength in numbers, which explain why he's willing to forgive the cabin group. Problem with seeing his grey parts is his ruthlessness and brutality (enough to call him an oppressor), but still, he believes in physical punishment and he has sense of protecting his family from weakness (which gets you killed in the world like this).

    I stopped taking Carver seriously the second he killed Reggie over berries.

    Yes, kill one of your most loyal followers over the most inane thing ever, I’m sure that will inspire loyalty among your followers. And if Carver was trying to control people through fear, that obviously didn’t work either; Reggie’s stupidly pointless death leads directly to Bonnie’s betrayal, and it’s briefly suggested Hank and Tavia are starting to doubt Carver because of what he did to Reggie.

    He was killed for the sake of the story. Carver (and Kenny) opened the door for Clementine and her future figure, a person she would become having Carver's ideology back at her head. She had to make a decision about who she really was, which examples will appear later on.
    Carver had to be killed, same as Lee. Only choice that matters is:
    Who will you become?

    "#MyClementine", eh?

    Fair enough, but I would’ve taken this plot point a little more seriously if it hadn’t been for this:

    "Do what #YourClementine would do."

    "Unless #YourClementine doesn’t like Kenny."

    "Because #NoClementineAnywhereEverIsAllowedToDislikeKenny, even though she has plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to dislike him".

    I mean, it's fine if you like In Harm's Way, it's your opinion and all, and it's cool that you put in the effort to make a detailed post, but... I still don't like it :/

  • Well, If you were a girl and you were called a boy, would you be a little upset?

    AronDracula posted: »

    Why would it offend anyone?

  • DeltinoDeltino Moderator

    Am I the only one that never understood the whole "Carver killed Reggie over berries" thing

    If anything, Carver just used it as a catch-22 in order to ensure that Reggie screwed up either way, so he'd have external justification for getting rid of him, especially since it's implied he's already had his sights on Reggie for quite some time prior to that scene ("He's had a string of screw-ups lately")

    Or in simpler terms: he gave him a 'final chance' as an ultimatum to get his act together, but was really just putting him into scenarios where him fucking up were highly likely, rigging the odds in Carver's favor. The berries were just an opportunity that came up that he finally used to his advantage. I'd bet if Reggie didn't 'mess up' with the berries and unwittingly create that opportunity, Carver would have just assigned him to something else that he had no chance of doing correctly in order to get rid of him.

  • Well @fallandir? Do you still feel the same about what you said now that some time has past and people have nit - picked it to hell?

  • YES!!!!! IHW is pretty underrated while NGB is overrated (but that's another topic I guess xD)

  • Dude doesn't necesarry mean boy, does it?

    Well, If you were a girl and you were called a boy, would you be a little upset?

  • edited May 2015

    I'm pretty sure at the time people had nit picked it to hell already, anything after that was just overkill.

    That goes for all of S2 IMO as well.

    DoubleJump posted: »

    Well @fallandir? Do you still feel the same about what you said now that some time has past and people have nit - picked it to hell?

  • Oh boi.

    Alt text

    Having Season 1 flashbacks is not an indication of good writing. If anything, it shows how the writers had to bank on the players’ memories of season 1 to keep their attention. Basically why Kenny returned.

    I would rather have flashbacks and references to a previous season, than complete blank storyline fenced off from the rest. It's the realistic way of presenting Clementine's story, how some things she has witnessed become an essential part of her memory and shaped her personality. I won't discuss Kenny's return because I don't have any strong opinion about it.

    Kenny talking about Molly was completely out of nowhere. “There was a girl back at Crawford who used church bells to get around” he says, in a tone that indicates everyone already knows about Crawford somehow despite the fact that no one besides Clem has any reason to know what the hell Kenny’s talking about. Was Kenny talking just to her?

    Because he is Kenny. He's emotional and short-tempered, he says things before thinking them through. He reminded something he thought would be important, and since he was already seeing himself as a leader, he wanted the whole group to hear him out.

    The tape and hatchet is almost certainly reused assets, especially since there is no other hint that the compound is affiliated with Crawford in any way.

    That's what I said.

    Everyone does, however, feel no qualms at all about making her do all the dangerous tasks. It was fine in season 1 since all the adults very clearly felt incredibly uncomfortable about making Clem do dangerous things like crawl through the vent or check the train station. In season 2, no one seems even slightly concerned with having the kid do everything, besides Mike and (very inconsistently) Luke.

    This rule concerns the whole season, not just E3. My point is to show there are also examples of story progressing without Clementine, as she isn't needed in some other people's buissnes.

    Everyone points out how adults had no barriers at all in asking Clem to take on more and more dangerous tasks, like this case is the main accusation against the season, but let's talk about all circumstances. Cabin Group was outside for the first time since a long period of time, they had absolutely no idea what to do. Clementine, even if she was a little girl, was clearly more prepared and experienced in survival techniques than everyone of them put together. Kenny was the one forcing Clem to do real dangerous tasks, seeing her as valuable person because of her mental and physical capabilities, and obviously trusting her more than CG, but it's Kenny we're talking about. Carlos and Nick were against Clem going out for scouting; Clementine herself offered to help with turbine. This part of S2 was a little exaggerated, sure, but constructive criticism relies on taking everything into account, even the little details.

    I laughed out loud when Rebecca casually told Clem to bring Alvin with her. Yeah, sure, the little girl will somehow carry the +200 pound, unconscious, heavily injured man up to the roof and down the skylight.

    It was just desperate talk of pregnant women scared to death about a man she loved. People say a lot of things in such situations, for example how Carley couldn't figure out why the radio wasn't working. I'm still suprised why people take those things so serious.

    But it didn’t even feel “prison-like”. The only labour we did was pick berries and carry nails. It felt like I was doing chores, not manual labour at a restrictive prison camp. The fact that the compound felt incredibly empty, and how more often than not Clem was allowed to go wherever completely unsupervised just made me feel like I was in a closed mall, not a prison.

    What other job would you give to a 11-yo girl? Why would Carver assign her to repairing the wall/expansion where the work requires physical force and it's certainly exhaustive? She got the lighter task, suitable for her capabilities - reffiling the magazines, carrying the nails etc. The fact that we saw Howe's from Clem's point of view doesn't mean the people in there weren't involved in hard labour and felt like they were serving a sentence.

    Admittedly an interesting concept, but the fact that the game itself never does anything with this potentially interesting concept is what makes Reggie’s character even more of a disappointment.

    I see it more as a strong advantage than a disappointment. I enjoy not having a clear explanation, ambiguity, space left to think of the eventualities, for making up theories, for creativity. The game could've explained to us why Reggie lost his arm, but personally I'm glad it didn't.

    There was sooooo much wasted potential. 400 Days characters, anyone?

    It was nice to see them, I wasn't expecting anything more. Telltale hinted about possible cameo during S2, however they didn't mention it's importance. I've never understood a butthurt over this. They can always expand this idea later, it's not like the topic has been definitively completed.

    That's... not character development. This doesn’t actually explain Bonnie’s behaviour at all. Bonnie acted nice because Telltale wanted us to like her? That’s like saying Carver was evil because Telltale wanted us to hate him. That’s not an in-universe justification for anything.

    Couple posts above yours.

    "The way how Bonnie refer to Carver by his last name for the very first time is simple the step forward out of their close relationship. She addmited she respected Carver as the leader of a prospering community. She could even feel something, considering she used to fall for the older guys (Leland). After Reggie died, it was the breaking point when Bonnie slowly started to see Bill's darker side and decided to help Cabin Group, this sudden change in her thinking was surely a shock, yet I've noticed she only became more cold and determined in her words, which could be enough reason to believe her."

    If that's not a great character development, what is? It was nicely put together, reasonable and interesting.

    Back in the truck he was talking about how no one should do anything because that would be reckless and that they need to keep a level head. This coming from the man who spit on Carver’s face last episode.

    His character started being inconsistent long before Carver had the opportunity to threaten him at the compound.

    Let's make a logical cause-effect chain out of this.

    1. Carver's ideology is about creating a strong generation whose mission would be to lead people out of the apocalypse. According to that, he sees Sarah as a weakness that needs to be changed.

    2. Carlos fears about his daughter. He confronts Carver about it. Their argument is another reason for Cabin Group to leave Howe's in a hurry.

    3. Carver describes Carlos as "a smug son of a bitch, but a smart man", which possibly means that Carlos got what he wanted through escaping and opposing the rules, it may also indicate that Carlos was somehow conceited or cocky, and surely believed that he could handle Sarah's condition by himself.

    4. Carlos tries to oppose Carver once again, spitting right in his face. Perhaps he also tries to show both group and Sarah that he's not going to give up.

    5. In the truck, he understood that "there are consequences for rush actions" and Carver's ideology is a real treat; Carver concentrates on psychical punishment even though he uses violence - torturing Carlos in front of Sarah, forcing Carlos to hit her; Carlos realized that his own recklessness and impetuosity made the situation bad enough. He tries to explain it to Kenny.

    Rebecca was hugging her because Carlos was busy trying to keep Sarita from getting killed...

    Actually it happened after Kenny got beaten down, so it has nothing to do with Sarita. I've heard counterargument about Carlos being busy helping Luke, but Luke was already on his feet, and Carlos was standing motionless next to him. Rewatch the exact scene, friend. Sarah could've easily run up to her father, however she didn't. We've seen she couldn't handle the stress coming out from the shock she experienced. Considering the condition she was in, it's not suprising at all she became more afraid.

    Kenny feels bad he didn’t protect a little girl? Well, yeah… of course.

    Kenny feels bad he didn't protect Clementine, one of a few people left in the world he cares about.

    The game really downplayed the significance of what Luke did, travelling across the state on foot to rescue his friends, yet no one seems at all impressed by his loyalty or dedication. The group’s just like “Oh cool, Luke’s here. Wonder how he managed that. Eh, whatever”.

    Agreed, it was pretty bad.

    There was also no option to call Kenny out on misjudging Luke so horribly, or for calling him “a turd” for literally no reason.

    Kenny throws curses and insults every two seconds, he gets angry so easy and can carry on a discussion for years. We would need a whole 3-hours-long episode to do that.

    Yes, kill one of your most loyal followers over the most inane thing ever, I’m sure that will inspire loyalty among your followers. And if Carver was trying to control people through fear, that obviously didn’t work either; Reggie’s stupidly pointless death leads directly to Bonnie’s betrayal, and it’s briefly suggested Hank and Tavia are starting to doubt Carver because of what he did to Reggie.

    Carver inspired loyality among followers not by being evil, brutal or ruthless, but by forgiving and offering a second chance. Many of people ignore it, but it's true. "He had a string of screw ups lately". First off, Reggie tried to escape with Cabin Group and he clearly wasn't heading towards improvement since he didn't even get out the pen. Judging by his character, he was clumsy, incompetent, he was having problems with getting the simpliest tasks done. We don't know what exacly happened in Howe's when CG was gone, but everyone's patience has limits.

    "Do what #YourClementine would do."

    "Unless #YourClementine doesn’t like Kenny."

    "Because #NoClementineAnywhereEverIsAllowedToDislikeKenny, even though she has plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to dislike him".

    Hope you're joking. You could love Kenny to death, yet still killed him. You could make Clementine dislike him and stand by Jane's side in the finale. At the end, we have those multiple endings, ya know?

    I mean, it's fine if you like In Harm's Way, it's your opinion and all, and it's cool that you put in the effort to make a detailed post, but... I still don't like it :/

    It's your opinion and I respect it. Anyway, thanks for your effort, it was pretty long.

    I should probably be studying for finals, but... A. Season 1 Flashbacks: Having Season 1 flashbacks is not an in

  • I will stand my ground because I still think E3 is underrated. Nitpicking doesn't bother me, I do it myself if I criticize or review something. :>

    DoubleJump posted: »

    Well @fallandir? Do you still feel the same about what you said now that some time has past and people have nit - picked it to hell?

  • I think for a lot of people (including me) it marked a point where the season began to feel more rushed and compressed. People had high expectations for what Howe's was like, and at this point I understand that resource limitations probably explained how claustrophobic the episode felt.

    I get the sense that Howe's was meant to be crowded, but since Telltale didn't have the budget for crowd scenes with dozens of people they relied on narrow camera work that implied that there were loads of people constantly off-screen. The same goes for the Storm scenario - we never see more than a dozen zombies on-screen, but due to character dialogue and a very limited camera we buy the idea that there were indeed "thousands" of corpses in the big horde.

    The Storm scenario bothers me in many, many ways - I think it's one of the ideas that sounds cool on paper ("it's like the horde scene in Episode 5, only with MORE GUNS AND ZOMBIES AND CHARACTERS DYING"), but in execution it raises too many logical issues.

    fallandir posted: »

    I will stand my ground because I still think E3 is underrated. Nitpicking doesn't bother me, I do it myself if I criticize or review something. :>

  • edited May 2015

    It was nice to see them, I wasn't expecting anything more. Telltale hinted about possible cameo during S2, however they didn't mention it's importance. I've never understood a butthurt over this. They can always expand this idea later, it's not like the topic has been definitively completed.

    They hyped the f*** out of it!!

    "If you haven't played 400 Days yet you should do it about now"

    Nice Batman Gambit Job...
    .

    "This rule concerns the whole season, not just E3. My point is to show there are also examples of story progressing without Clementine, as she isn't needed in some other people's buissnes.

    Everyone points out how adults had no barriers at all in asking Clem to take on more and more dangerous tasks, like this case is the main accusation against the season, but let's talk about all circumstances. Cabin Group was outside for the first time since a long period of time, they had absolutely no idea what to do. Clementine, even if she was a little girl, was clearly more prepared and experienced in survival techniques than everyone of them put together. Kenny was the one forcing Clem to do real dangerous tasks, seeing her as valuable person because of her mental and physical capabilities, and obviously trusting her more than CG, but it's Kenny we're talking about. Carlos and Nick were against Clem going out for scouting; Clementine herself offered to help with turbine. This part of S2 was a little exaggerated, sure, but constructive criticism relies on taking everything into account, even the little details."

    Meh that was probably one of the hardest thing to believe in Season 2, they clrearly overdone it, and Episode 3 was close to be the apex of it.

    fallandir posted: »

    Oh boi. Having Season 1 flashbacks is not an indication of good writing. If anything, it shows how the writers had to ba

  • I'd say the high expectations are the reason of why whole S2 gets slapped over and over again.

    Bokor posted: »

    I think for a lot of people (including me) it marked a point where the season began to feel more rushed and compressed. People ha

  • dojo32161dojo32161 Moderator

    The [quote][/quote] thing doesn't work here, you try clicking on the symbol with the quotation marks instead, just so you know.

    It was nice to see them, I wasn't expecting anything more. Telltale hinted about possible cameo during S2, however they didn't men

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