How different would it be.

edited May 2015 in The Walking Dead

How different would it be if, say instead of Kenny surviving a herd of walkers for no apparent reason, that at the lodge we met Lilly instead. How different do you think Season 2 would've went? Baring in mind, Clem actually had interaction with Lilly in Season 1. She even has her hair pinned back with the bands Lilly gave her.

And. What would've been better. The Russian stand off in Episode 4. Or 400 day characters catching up to the group at the end of Episode 4 and replacing the Russians? Perhaps, with the 400 day people replacing them, the Russians could come to Clem's group defence depending on how you treated Arvo.

Opinions please.

Comments

  • Well if Lilly would've returned instead of Kenny, then No Going Back would've been tolerable for one...

    And for two, I wouldn't have had to look at him and auto-agree with his shit throughout the majority of season two.

  • I like Kenny, but season 2 was a rehash of his story arc in season 1.
    It stopped the development of sooooo many characters.

    I would've liked Lilly to have returned. It would have been interesting seeing her interact with the other characters.

  • edited May 2015

    Maybe the other characters would've gotten a bit more development time if Kenny wasn't in S2. Or not, y'know - they could've brought the limelight upon Lilly, but still. I'm likin' your version better than Telltale's.

  • I don't like thinking about this because I wish it had happened so badly.

  • If they kept Lily's personality, the whole Season would've been different. Carver storyline wouldn't be all focused on escaping; Rebecca could have her baby inside Howe's and actually survive the birth, meaning we wouldn't have Amid The Ruins scenario and many of deaths simply wouldn't happen.

  • How different would it be if instead of Pete being bit Nick was and you could save pete??
    (Urggh I wish this had happened I don't hate nick but Pete was really great ^_^)

  • DeltinoDeltino Moderator
    edited May 2015

    All I can imagine is practically the same thing as now, as far as public opinion goes:

    People angry about Lilly being forced on them, or feeling she's overdone/overdeveloped (or more likely in this circumstance, underdone/underdeveloped) in comparison to other characters

    People that liked Kenny more being angry about Lilly's presence and wishing Kenny was there instead

    As much as I hate to admit it (being one of the rare few people that actually like Lilly and Kenny), it seems like more people liked Kenny than they did Lilly. If Kenny can turn forums into a war zone just by the mere mentioning of his name, I can't imagine it being any better off if it was Lilly instead

    And here's some food for thought: if you believe the writers this season already had a positive bias towards Kenny, then imagine how they'd write Lilly. Chances of them having a negative bias towards Lilly would almost be a given in that circumstance. Instead of being forced to auto-agree to Kenny, you'd probably end up auto-disagreeing to everything Lilly says instead. It wouldn't be much better in the long run. She'd most likely get relegated to being a punching bag/scapegoat throughout the season, rather than being built upon and redeemed as a character.

    From that perspective, it's probably better that they bastardized Kenny instead of Lilly. (I don't personally feel this way about the situation, but it's still something to think about)

  • I probably would have just been a dick to her if she was the same as she was in season 1, she was a bitch to me, so she gets what she deserves

  • Having Kenny come back is a lot like seeing someone in public you don't want to see as a child but your parents are with you so you can't avoid them. They start talking to you and all you can do as a defense mechanisim is just put on the best shit-eating grin and think about how much better it'd been if it was blank instead. Lilly is that blank.

    Just smile and nod.

    Flog61 posted: »

    I don't like thinking about this because I wish it had happened so badly.

  • I think Kenny buried a lot of characters but really who's to say it wouldn't have been the same with Lily? Not dure about the Russian group. They seemed like generic people meant as generic villains

  • Instead of being forced to auto-agree to Kenny, you'd probably end up auto-disagreeing to everything Lilly says instead. It wouldn't be much better in the long run. She'd most likely get relegated to being a punching bag/scapegoat throughout the season, rather than being built upon and redeemed as a character.

    Pretty much what I feared, too. Then again, the fact that Clem is given a clear option to either sympathize with Lilly or not in the No Going Back flashback (You can either say Lilly's reason for killing Doug/Carley was dumb and Lee was right to leave her, or attempt to understand her and unambiguously state that bringing Lilly was the right thing to do), made me a little hopeful the writers aren't insanely biased against her.

    Deltino posted: »

    All I can imagine is practically the same thing as now, as far as public opinion goes: People angry about Lilly being forced on

  • DeltinoDeltino Moderator

    As long as they step up their game for S3, I imagine that they could definitely do Lilly's character justice. It's just that, after seeing how some elements of S2 played out, it's probably for the best that they brought Kenny back instead.

    Personally, I don't have much problems with how Kenny was handled in S2, but I can totally understand how others felt about how he was handled. Regardless of personal perspective, it's a good thing either way, since they have a lot of feedback to help them improve and learn from mistakes made with Kenny, so that if they do bring back Lilly, they can make it worth it for both sides of the coin.

    Instead of being forced to auto-agree to Kenny, you'd probably end up auto-disagreeing to everything Lilly says instead. It wouldn

  • It would've made things a lot more interesting in my opinion, and if they built upon her conflicts in Season 1 about not introducing new people into the group, then it would provide a better conflict for the season as everything falls apart like she predicted would happen since season 1 too.

  • I feel like telltale left Lilly, Christa and Molly's story unfinished for a reason, wether that reason was to leave suspense, to cause a debate or even to possibly bring them back. There is still a chance we might see one of them in S3.

  • I think telltale left Lilly, Christa and Molly's fates unfinished for a reason. Maybe it was to create a debate, to build suspense but there is still a chance we might see one of them is S3. I think if we had seen Lilly instead of Kenny in S2 there would have been a lot more debate.

    Im glad telltale did what they did but I wish they hadn't have made Kenny's escape so unbelievable :/

  • Chicken in a can u not

  • Shit you just made Season 2 sound a lot better....

  • you seem to be implying that (the parent) kenny never had any interaction (his son's friend) Clementine, whereas it would probably be the case that kenny and katjaa looked after the kids most of the time, Lilly may have given her hair bands, but she also killed carley/doug right in front of her.

    a lot of people seem to be under the (incorrect) impression that kenny and clementine never interacted in season ones timeline, however it is more likely that most of the general day to day parental duties were performed by kenny and katjaa, while due to her personality lilly would have been the cold/distant authoritarian (even if she did have a sweet spot for clementine) with very little friendly interaction with clementine.

  • I think what some people are getting at with the apparent lack of relationship between Clementine and Kenny is that they rarely talk to each other on-screen, at least in Season 1.

    I can only recall two instances where the game shows Clementine and Kenny talking or acknowledging each other, when Kenny teases Clementine about having spiders in her hair in EP1, and Kenny angrily telling her to get on the train in EP3 when Clementine brings up his son's condition.

    This is where "show, don't tell" is important in stories since we're shown evidence that two people can relate or care for each other, and because there are only two very short scenes of the two talking to each other, this gives some players the impression that the two are not very close. Just having the game say they spoke often off-screen and were supposedly very close to each other in spite of the lack of on-screen evidence is practically a lazy form of writing, and doesn't really convince some players that their relationship is genuine.

    The lack of on-screen relationship between the two is also why some players are disillusioned with the idea that Kenny is meant to be Clementine's new guardian/parent figure, in spite of almost never speaking or relating to each other for an entire season. Even Christa, who only appeared half-way Season 1 before she was kidnapped at the end of Episode 4, spoke to Clementine more than Kenny did.

    you seem to be implying that (the parent) kenny never had any interaction (his son's friend) Clementine, whereas it would probably

  • well i didn't see clementine drawing (and keeping) a picture of Lilly.

    clementine doesn't really interact much with anybody that we see (because the game was about Lee) but it was obvious that katjaa was close with and concerned for clementine, and kenny and katjaa were always by each others side, plus them being the parents (and kenny's comments if you feed the kids) made it clear that looking after the kids was a priority to kenny and katjaa.

    the only interaction we see with clementine and Lilly (which is the point of this discussion) is lilly being stern and telling clementine to stop playing with a ball, so the point is that we don't see any positive interaction between lilly and clementine either, but all the evidence about their characters and actions in the game points towards kenny (at least) looking out for clementine.

    RichWalk23 posted: »

    I think what some people are getting at with the apparent lack of relationship between Clementine and Kenny is that they rarely ta

  • False. We see Lilly approaching Clementine in Jolene's video while she's drawing and talking with her in a way that seems amicable. It's later said that Lilly gave Clementine hair thingies for sleeping, which could have been the same moment, but nevertheless implies that they have conversation. Lilly shows concern for Clementine specifically when someone is stealing medicine. And Lilly tells Lee that she will protect Clementine before he goes out and faces the St. Johns. So while it's true that they only have a little interaction as well, Lilly's protective instincts for Clementine are far more apparent than Kenny's were in season 1, whose main priority was his family.

    I don't deny that Kenny cares about her to an extent like he seems to do for children in general, but this is the same guy that can refuse to help in the search for her if you disagreed with him on various issues. You don't even have to hate him and treat him like complete shit, if he feels you weren't always there for him, he'll essentially jeopardize Clementine's rescue by making everything about him, as per usual.

    well i didn't see clementine drawing (and keeping) a picture of Lilly. clementine doesn't really interact much with anybody tha

  • you know that lilly steals the groups only form of transport (no matter how nice you are to her) if you let her stay with you after she kills one of the group, good protective instincts there, i think you are falling for the "all women have protective instincts for children" cliche,

    endangering the life of a child is way worse than not being willing to risk your life on a one in a million chance of finding a child

    damkylan posted: »

    False. We see Lilly approaching Clementine in Jolene's video while she's drawing and talking with her in a way that seems amicable

  • Kind of like endangering the life of several people to find a boat in a large city is worse than leading a group of people into the freezing north to find a place that might not exist.

    you know that lilly steals the groups only form of transport (no matter how nice you are to her) if you let her stay with you afte

  • If Lilly returned, I wouldn't have hugged her.

  • not at all, both succeeded, both times there was no other plan, and both times they were good ideas because zombies cant swim and zombies freeze.

    endangering a whole group by stealing their only transport isn't at all the same as having a plan to lead a whole group out of the already present danger of the zombie apocalypse.

    nice try, but do think things through before you say something, disliking a character doesn't automatically make everything they do bad, and trying to list good things they do as bad things just makes you sound irrational

    Anthorn posted: »

    Kind of like endangering the life of several people to find a boat in a large city is worse than leading a group of people into the freezing north to find a place that might not exist.

  • Yeah, I had a feeling that would be brought up, and since it does absolutely nothing to change the facts that Lilly displayed very clear protective instincts whenever it came to Clementine beforehand, I didn't think it bore mentioning. Kinda like how you didn't mention Kenny clearly not giving a rat's rectal cavity whether Clementine was safe or not when Lee asked him for help, while positing that there were signs that he cared for her in season 1.

    I don't defend either of them. I do, however, see a big difference in scale when it comes to the apparent motivations in their actions. In Lilly's case, it was a matter of her crumbling mental state and the whole shooting another human being in the head and now (rightfully) being deemed a murderer in a crumbling group that overrode any protective instincts she had displayed up until then. Meanwhile, what overrode Kenny's supposed caring for Clementine? Pure ego, and nothing more. At that point, it wasn't a one in a million shot in any of their minds. They had a destination in mind, and thought they had it figured that Vernon took Clem, and would need numbers to get her back. It's every bit as bad as Lilly's actions, because Kenny doesn't even have self-preservation as a reason for doing what he did. He just puts himself before Clementine's safety, just like Lilly did.

    you know that lilly steals the groups only form of transport (no matter how nice you are to her) if you let her stay with you afte

  • i like how you let lilly off for emotional distress but say kenny's actions were motivated by ego while forgetting that Kenny had lost his wife and son and was in a serious depressive state, seriously... ego, what the hell are you on about

    damkylan posted: »

    Yeah, I had a feeling that would be brought up, and since it does absolutely nothing to change the facts that Lilly displayed very

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