Telltale Autumn Sale

I really hate Elaine in the ending sequence (SPOILER)

13

Comments

  • edited January 2010
    I've tried to stay away from these forums lately because I've been busy & just didn't have the time to play the last episode. I found the time to finish the last episode now & I have to say, I'm pretty disappointed how it all ended.

    Chapters 1-3 were excellent & I was really excited & happy about how the series was playing out. But it all started to fall apart for me from chapter 4 onwards. I was looking forward to the night time episode of chapter 4 a lot. I was hoping to get that lonely, night time ambience from the episode that I got from Melee Island when I first played MI1. But that didn't happen. Perhaps because in MI1 it starts off at night & you spend a lot of time there & then you are rewarded with the sun scorched Journey & Under Monkey Island once you leave Melee. But a lot of it was to do with the illogical & annoying puzzles in Ch4 & what I thought was a rather boring story. Ch4 was awful for me. Really let me down & I didn't like it at all. :( Sorry.

    That's enough about Ch4, I didn't mean to say that much about it, but I wanted to give my opinion on the end of the season as well as the last chapter.

    The final chapter also had some illogical puzzles & seemed forced at times, but I did really enjoy it. The parts where you moved inbetween the rips & had to be ghost Guybrush or zombie Guybrush, depending on what you needed to accomplish, puzzle wise, were excellent. The final battle on LeChucks ship was epic as well & was an excellent nod to the old games in how the final puzzles played out. Then came the end... Massively disappointed I'm afraid. The good feeling I had about the chapter were completely undone in just a few seconds with that ending. It seemed rushed & I think it's apt that some have mentioned Lost. Because it felt just like that. Like even TT didn't know how it was going to end & they were making it up as they went, then they tried to wrap it all up at the end in an explanation that was the best they could manage.

    To summarise, my final feelings on the series have been somewhat of disappointment. Mainly due to my dislike of Ch4, the ending of Ch5, Elaine's poor characterisation throughout (she went backwards & forwards like a yo-yo & I just couldn't get a grip on her character) & how buggy the entire series was (possibly due to it being episodic). I'm undecided whether I'd like to see a second season at this point.

    PS. Does anyone know who the writers were for each episode? I'd be interested to know who wrote my favourite chapters & who wrote the ones I wasn't too keen on.

    EDIT: I've just re-read my post & it comes across as a little ungrateful to TTG. I want to point out (to TT mainly & everyone involved in the game) that I am grateful they resurrected the MI series & I appreciate all the hard work they've put in throughout the season. Despite my gripes & feelings towards the end, a lot of the puzzles have been some of the best & cleverest the MI series have ever seen. For an episodic, 3D, keyboard controlled, MI game, you did a great job. It just wasn't perfect & that's just not good enough for a crazed, frothing at the mouth, MI fan like me! :p
  • edited January 2010
    Here's something none of you seem to have taken into acount...

    The games all have a very central concept of VooDoo. In VooDoo, everything is predetermined, you cannot easily change your fate or hte fate of others. It is one of the strongest beliefs in voodoo - that hte spirits cocntrol everyone' destany.

    Also, did nobody consider elane's "I always had a plan" just a smartalec comment to save face? a much more serios version of when a person screws up and then say "uhhh.... I um.... I meant for that to happen! yeah... heh...."
  • edited January 2010
    But it wasn't "I always HAD a plan" it's "I always have a plan." Meaning she always has a plan in bad situations not that she was planning everything from the start.
  • edited January 2010
    she's off screen for most of the game then all of a sudden she's the one that made it possible for good to triumph in the end?

    Remember "Secret of Monkey Island"? Almost everything Guybrush does in that game amounts to nothing. She saved herself and provided her own root beer. The only thing Guybrush contributes is killing LeChuck with a different root beer bottle he finds, and that's only AFTER he ruins Elaine's plan.

    The Elaine character was originally playing a different, off-screen version of the same adventure game that Guybrush was, and she was better at it. This felt like a throwback to that.
  • edited January 2010
    PecanBlue wrote: »
    But it wasn't "I always HAD a plan" it's "I always have a plan." Meaning she always has a plan in bad situations not that she was planning everything from the start.

    She DOES tell she's planned everything from the start. Remember the line I quoted some posts ago ("I LET you capture me and I PLAYED ALONG with your stupid nice guy act because I thought it would get Guybrush to realize that the Voodoo Lady-")? The "I always have a plan" line isn't the one which made me cringe. ;)
    doggans wrote: »
    The Elaine character was originally playing a different, off-screen version of the same adventure game that Guybrush was, and she was better at it. This felt like a throwback to that.

    It did not feel like that to me! True, in MI1 she had been playing the same adventure Guybrush was, but she didn't even think that Guybrush was trying to save her. She was helping herself. On the contrary, in ToMI Elaine and Guybrush are in the same adventure TOGETHER, so there's no reason for her not to share with Guy importants clues.
    Or... if there's a reason... there's no reason we shouldn't know this reason! :p :D
  • edited January 2010
    Diduz wrote: »
    She DOES tell she's planned everything from the start. Remember the line I quoted some posts ago ("I LET you capture me and I PLAYED ALONG with your stupid nice guy act because I thought it would get Guybrush to realize that the Voodoo Lady-")?

    That doesn't exactly mean everything that happened with the crossroads was part of a grand plan, she just says she was playing along at the beginning pre-pox. And we find out later that she was charmed during the whole nice guy ordeal anyway, so there was no real way she was playing along consciously.
  • edited January 2010
    PecanBlue wrote: »
    That doesn't exactly mean everything that happened with the crossroads was part of a grand plan, she just says she was playing along at the beginning pre-pox. And we find out later that she was charmed during the whole nice guy ordeal anyway, so there was no real way she was playing along consciously.

    she could be lieing just to make LeChuck think he didnt trick her just to keep her pride
  • edited January 2010
    Yes, I also mentioned that a few pages back as one of the possibilities. Lots of mysteries in this game anyway.
  • edited January 2010
    This whole thread feels as ridiculous as this.
  • edited January 2010
    ^
    Oh no! Not completely valid goofs!
  • edited January 2010
    PecanBlue wrote: »
    That doesn't exactly mean everything that happened with the crossroads was part of a grand plan, she just says she was playing along at the beginning pre-pox.

    OK. Let's just, for the sake of argument, disregard the whole crossroads issue and discuss Elaine's playing along pre-pox.

    Why, exactly? In her own words, it was to 'get Guybrush to realise that the Voodoo Lady-' Yet never ever does she mention this to Guybrush. If they had spoken about this before, and Guybrush did not believe it (like mentioned, I believe in the topic conjecturing 'explaining' the plot), I would at least expect some reference to this in the script. (Elaine: 'NOW do you believe me about the Voodoo Lady?' Somewhere during the finale. That's all it would've taken.)

    But instead, Guybrush mentions the VL the first time he's on LeChuck's ship, and Elaine is shocked and bewildered at him working together with her. Guybrush on the other hand, doesn't have any idea in the slightest what he did wrong. The first (going off his reaction) and only time he -and the player- heard about the Voodoo Lady manipulating him was when LeChuck waved around a diary in court. A diary nobody bothered to read -at least not when Guybrush, and again, the player was around. Considering LeChuck (the one bringing the Voodoo Lady's motives to the attention) STABBED HIM TO DEATH afterwards, this 'evidence' is weak at best.

    Yet it is all evidence Guybrush had up to that point. Now keeping this information in mind, look back at Elaine's dialogue. Doesn't this implicate very heavily that she never even bothered to talk to Guybrush about the Voodoo Lady's motives at all? That she went for a risky, complicated 'show' without even trying the 'tell' option of persuading him? And if that is true, doesn't that make her a... not very nice person?
  • edited January 2010
    Considering she doesn't even even finish her sentence, nor do we really know what even happened before all this, it's hard to come to any conclusion like that. I don't think making mistakes makes someone a bad person either.
  • edited January 2010
    I think it really comes down to the fact that Elaine has always been a bit of a (justified) know-it-all. In MI1 she frees herself and makes voodoo rootbear without the canabals' help, even though they were the only ones who knew how to make it. In MI2 she goes right to the island where Big Whoop was buried without have ever scene more than one piece of the map, and without having that piece anymore. She has always known things that she has no logical reason for knowing, and even if she didn't know something, she would want to make it seem like she did. Why else would she bring up the completely irrelevant pronounciation of "esponja" at the end? She likes that intellectual superiority. She's the kind of person who will take credit for anything she can take credit for, even when she wasn't responsible. This should be clear from the fact that she took credit for killing LeChuck after MI1.
  • edited January 2010
    Is explained how Elaine know how to return from the crossroad in human form? It is really strange considering that even the Voodoo lady did not know!

    He might have talked with LeChuck since he escaped from the crossoroads many times (5?), but the fact that the power of true love works so well should be unknown even for him, or not?
  • edited January 2010
    Has anyone considered that Elaine might have said she had a plan when she really didn't have much of one, but was just trying to claim a bit of credit for things working out in the end? (Kind of like Ron Gilbert saying that he wanted to make MI3 but never did, and things worked out for the MI series anyway.)

    And I thought TMI was one of the best MI games, Chapter 5 being an exciting and entertaining conclusion to the season. I, for one, am willing to overlook a few questions created by the plot so long as the overall experience was fun and entertaining. In fact, there are a number of extremely popular movies that have been made that, though they have large plothole questions staring you in the face, are still fun and exciting to watch.

    As far as Ron Gilbert is concerned, props to the man who created Monkey Island but I believe that though he claims to have had an MI3 game in mind, he never even started creating it. Not to mention that the end of MI2 was full of the weirdness factor that would befit Sam & Max. I personally think that he was just saying that he was planning on making an MI3 himself, just to give himself a bit of props, though the end of MI2 is bizarre and random enough to suggest he never even considered it. Besides, I love Curse. For ages, it was my favorite game (though TMI gives it a run for it's money.)
  • edited January 2010
    It is an habit I noticed too, but I completely disagree with.

    It seems people take something that disliked and says `Since I disliked _that_ so everything is bad.'

    I do not know the OP was thinking in this way I prefer saying: `without forgetting the pleasure we had playing, enjoying the story, do you think is would be even better if...?' or `I loved the series, but I _that_ does not make any sense!'
  • edited January 2010
    nivekious wrote: »
    This should be clear from the fact that she took credit for killing LeChuck after MI1.

    Wat.
    ezzetabi wrote: »
    It seems people take something that disliked and says `Since I disliked _that_ so everything is bad.'

    I do not know the OP was thinking in this way I prefer saying: `without forgetting the pleasure we had playing, enjoying the story, do you think is would be even better if...?' or `I loved the series, but I _that_ does not make any sense!'

    Yes, and I think there were a lot of other mysteries and plot inconsistencies besides what Elaine was thinking about at the beginning. I don't really know why everyone chooses to focus on that and that alone.
  • edited January 2010
    PecanBlue wrote: »
    Wat.

    In MI2, it's mentioned that she took credit for blowing up LeChuck somewhere.
    PecanBlue wrote: »
    Yes, and I think there were a lot of other mysteries and plot inconsistencies besides what Elaine was thinking about at the beginning. I don't really know why everyone chooses to focus on that and that alone.

    My guess is because it's basically the last thing we see of Guybrush and Elaine in Tales, and since it left people cold as far as endings go, that's why it gets beaten on so much? I was more disappointed with how brief the ending scene was then just Elaine.
  • edited January 2010
    In MI2, it's mentioned that she took credit for blowing up LeChuck somewhere.

    I don't remember this at all, somehow. I just remember Voodoo Lady taking credit.
  • edited January 2010
    PecanBlue wrote: »
    ^
    Oh no! Not completely valid goofs!

    Hey guys, let's discuss decidedly minor possible inconsistencies in a comedy! Sounds like something that isn't totally a waste of time and pointless!
  • edited January 2010
    Let's discuss fiction on a message board in general! Totally seems like a productive way to spend our time rather than to go outside and get some fresh air and exercise!

    It's a message board for a game, dude. Discussing ANYTHING about it after you're already done with it isn't ever a productive way to spend your time. Unless you want to count that you're getting some writing or communication experience out of it, and so it shouldn't even matter what the subject is.

    Also, goofs are totally different things than plot gaps. I certainly find them interesting and funny to read, and they're not really meant to berate the source.
  • edited January 2010
    PecanBlue wrote: »
    I don't remember this at all, somehow. I just remember Voodoo Lady taking credit.

    Largo lied and said that and ended up with part of LeChuck. The Voodoo Lady never made that claim.

    I thought there's more than one reference that Elaine says defeated Lechuck. I don't remember who it was (maybe the gate guard?) but Elaine's staff mentions she defeated LeChuck, that and I thought she had a book in the library (not sure on that one) with her name as an anagram.
  • edited January 2010
    I somehow think this is just a running gag about nobody believing that Guybrush could actually kill LeChuck and then just having other people be falsely credited throughout.
  • edited January 2010
    I think Elaine was bluffing when she said "i let played along with your nice guy act" theres loads of times when random thins come togeather and worked out good 4 me and i lied saing i planed it all along I think she may have 2
  • edited January 2010
    I think Elaine was bluffing when she said "i let played along with your nice guy act"

    Best explanation ever, I really mean this. ;)
    Unfortunately, we could just ASSUME it's a bluff. We'll never know.
  • edited January 2010
    Yeah my friend even thought the two statements were unconnected and she was in denial when saying both. She thought when Elaine said "I let you capture me" she was referring to the most recent capture that Winslow mentions and not the one at the beginning, and then tried to make up an excuse for the whole nice guy thing before. Like she's just trying keep LeChuck in his place and stands her ground as the tough one in front of him.

    WHO KNOWS!!!
  • nikasaurnikasaur Telltale Alumni
    edited January 2010
    According to This! there's a pretty good explanation from Stemmle:
    SWP: There are a lot of controversial talks between the fans regarding the story of ToMI. Can you clear it up a bit for us? For instance, is it implied that Elaine knows about everything from the start? How much DOES she know and what was her plan, if she had one?
    MS: Elaine has a history of being one step ahead of Guybrush, LeChuck, and everyone else in the world of Monkey Island. That’s because, well, most of the cast isn’t all that bright.

    Our take is that Elaine has long suspected that the Voodoo Lady has been putting Guybrush and LeChuck through a never-ending cycle of conflict for mysterious purposes. This annoys the heck out of Elaine, who is ultra-protective of her hubby and chafes at the notion of being manipulated by forces beyond her control. But Guybrush trusted the Voodoo Lady too much for Elaine to simply say “Hey, I think this nice lady that has helped you on umpteen previous occasions is using you like a puppet.” Besides, she didn’t want to get on the Voodoo Lady’s radar.

    When LeChuck suddenly became human at the start of the first episode, Elaine intuitively realized that LeChuck was also playing some sort of long game against the Voodoo Lady, so she went along with it, keeping an eye on LeChuck all the while, and nudging Guybrush in ways both small (”trust me”) and large (”take the ring”).

    Of course, she didn’t plan on being overwhelmed by the Pox. Or LeChuck actually managing to kill Guybrush. That’s why she’s so forlorn at the start of the final episode; she’s played things too close to the vest, and now her snugglebunny is dead.
  • edited January 2010
    nikasaur wrote: »
    According to This! there's a pretty good explanation from Stemmle:

    I really liked the answer, but unfortunately it doesn't explain the role of LeChuck's "trust belt". And I don't understand what Mike means with
    "nudging Guybrush in ways both small (”trust me”) and large (”take the ring”)."
    What kind of "Voodoo-Lady-related-nudging" is giving him the ring? What should Guybrush guess by that?
  • ttg_Stemmlettg_Stemmle Telltale Alumni
    edited January 2010
    Diduz wrote: »
    I really liked the answer, but unfortunately it doesn't explain the role of LeChuck's "trust belt". And I don't understand what Mike means with
    "nudging Guybrush in ways both small (”trust me”) and large (”take the ring”)."
    What kind of "Voodoo-Lady-related-nudging" is giving him the ring? What should Guybrush guess by that?

    LeChuck's Trust Belt is something that just sort of enhanced human LeChuck's natural charisma. Elaine likely never REALLY got sucked in by it, although she probably had undoubtedly had moments where her resolve was tested (Exhibit A: "Woof."). In other words, it's a bit of a puzzle device that also helps explain why everyone else in the Caribbean is willing to give Human LeChuck the time of day.

    Elaine's handing Guybrush her ring is an interesting lil' plot point, innit? She had no idea that her hubby would be stuck in the afterlife, nor that the rules for getting out of the afterlife would neatly coincide with offering up said ring. And yet, she intuitively KNOWS to give it to him, and makes sure he keeps his hands on it, even AFTER she's fully f-ed up by the Pox (note how ticked she gets on the stand when Guybrush points out the ring on the evidence stand). She knows the ring is important, and does everything she can to reinforce its importance, even though she really can't have ANY idea WHY its important.

    So how'd the idea get planted in her head, anyway?

    Mike "Max is a funny little bunny" Stemmle
  • edited January 2010
    (note how ticked she gets on the stand when Guybrush points out the ring on the evidence stand)

    I loved that. In fact, I'm tempted to play Trial and Execution again right now just because I can't remember her exact response, just that it was great.
  • edited January 2010
    "You let them take it from you?! *red eyes* Didn't I tell you never to let it out of your siiiight?!" (says sight in a REALLY SCARY GROWL)

    "But-"

    "But me no buts, love of mine!"

    It is indeed a great scene, I pretty much shot my face away from the monitor when she said that and my friend audibly said "OH SH**."
  • edited January 2010
    nikasaur wrote: »
    According to This! there's a pretty good explanation from Stemmle:

    That's pretty much how I interpreted Elaine's actions and reactions, I really don't get why people seem to think she's being a bitch. (if anything, she seems to have softened somewhat since Escape)

    As fas as the issue with the trust belt goes, I'd agree that it plays into things by allowing LeChuck to interact with the people he formerly terrorised (i.e. the entire Caribbean) without them shunning/being terrified of him. After all, being turned human doesn't really excuse all his actions while being a ghost/zombie/demon. And I think the belt buckle may have been subtly influencing Elaine in that she was prepared to go along with LeChuck's plans to 're-home' the assorted monkeys without questioning why they had to be put in such specific places. (on a raft in the middle of the ocean? Really?)

    Regarding the books in MI2, IIRC Elaine didn't write one about how she killed LeChuck, but she did write one about her then-failed relationship with Guybrush. There's also eight or so 'romance' novels in the catalogue written by a 'Melanie Leary', which is an anagram for Elaine Marley, but nothing about LeChuck. Guybrush on the other hand has written no less than four different books on how he defeated LeChuck. ('When/Why/How/Where I Blew Up LeChuck')

    And not to go off topic, but I also don't see how Morgan would be better for Guybrush than Elaine. (and I love Morgan) Say what you like about Elaine, but she's never cut off his hand or sold him out to a mad scientist intending to dissect him...

    ETA: Also, I agree with the 'Elaine only becomes LeChuck's demon bridge to get the Cursed Cutlass' theory. One of the first things she does upon being de-demonised is to try and hide it behind her back, like she's not wanting LeChuck to notice that she's still got it.
  • edited January 2010
    LeChuck's Trust Belt is something that just sort of enhanced human LeChuck's natural charisma. Elaine likely never REALLY got sucked in by it, although she probably had undoubtedly had moments where her resolve was tested (Exhibit A: "Woof."). In other words, it's a bit of a puzzle device that also helps explain why everyone else in the Caribbean is willing to give Human LeChuck the time of day.

    Thanks for answering, Mike!!!! :):):)
    So I guess the Voodoo Lady is lying when she says that Elaine has been driven by the belt. That would be no surprise, considering the Voodoo Lady isn't exactly reliable...
  • edited January 2010
    she might not know elaine is ploting against her and assume the belt is why she was trusting lechuck
  • edited January 2010
    Jen Kollic wrote: »

    Regarding the books in MI2, IIRC Elaine didn't write one about how she killed LeChuck, but she did write one about her then-failed relationship with Guybrush. There's also eight or so 'romance' novels in the catalogue written by a 'Melanie Leary', which is an anagram for Elaine Marley, but nothing about LeChuck. Guybrush on the other hand has written no less than four different books on how he defeated LeChuck. ('When/Why/How/Where I Blew Up LeChuck')

    Oh. I wasn't sure about Elaine taking credit for LeChuck in the books but I knew she written some stuff about her relationship with Guybrush. It's been awhile since I played MI2, but I do remember the gate guard to her mansion saying Elaine blew up LeChuck.
  • edited January 2010
    LeChuck's Trust Belt is something that just sort of enhanced human LeChuck's natural charisma. Elaine likely never REALLY got sucked in by it, although she probably had undoubtedly had moments where her resolve was tested (Exhibit A: "Woof."). In other words, it's a bit of a puzzle device that also helps explain why everyone else in the Caribbean is willing to give Human LeChuck the time of day.

    Elaine's handing Guybrush her ring is an interesting lil' plot point, innit? She had no idea that her hubby would be stuck in the afterlife, nor that the rules for getting out of the afterlife would neatly coincide with offering up said ring. And yet, she intuitively KNOWS to give it to him, and makes sure he keeps his hands on it, even AFTER she's fully f-ed up by the Pox (note how ticked she gets on the stand when Guybrush points out the ring on the evidence stand). She knows the ring is important, and does everything she can to reinforce its importance, even though she really can't have ANY idea WHY its important.

    So how'd the idea get planted in her head, anyway?

    Mike "Max is a funny little bunny" Stemmle

    This has to finish with a "HA!"
  • edited September 2010
    Diduz wrote: »
    Agreed. That's the only thing I had no problem with. It's clearly a brave "on-the-fly" decision, I really liked it. It's very welll explained in close-ups and Elaine's expressions. No problem in THAT scene. The problem is with her overall "I'll unmask the Voodoo Lady plan to Guybrush" plan, as I've already explained. ;)

    I expect ethier a) "There is no ultimate Voodoo Lady plan" it all been created by Le Chuck most likely with that "Voodoo Belt", (Remember Le Chuck hates the Voodoo Lady a few words + the belt would make this happen) or b) She couldn't really prove it and without any proof there no point bringing it up to Guybush. BTW I am not sure but I think Elaine says that she don't trust the Voodoo Lady at lest once in one of the earlier parts (might even be in MI 1 or 2).
    As for "I LET you capture me and I PLAYED ALONG with your stupid nice guy act because I thought it would get Guybrush to realize that the Voodoo Lady-" it's party Le Chucks influence but it's also a way to save face to herself (don't want to believe that Le Chuck tricked her so turns the table to I trick Le Chuck instead), or it not refering to the events we though it was (IE the second capture not the first). Also Elaine expected Guybrush to comeback just because Le Chuck and Guybrush have already managed to (multiple times in the case of Le Chuck).
  • edited September 2010
    +1

    The whole "playing along with LeChuck so that you could realize [pffft] that the Voodoo Lady was behind everything" crapout also got to me :confused:
  • edited September 2010
    It didn't bother me that much, to be honest. Elaine's been several steps ahead of the other characters since SoMI so it didn't seem so that she would be in ToMI. I don't really see it as her having this grand master plan so much as it is her seeing opportunities (LeChuck being human and becoming his demon bride after he announces that only someone with his powers can pick the Cutlass up, etc.) and attempting to utilize them to her advantage.
  • edited September 2010
    "I LET you capture me and I PLAYED ALONG with your stupid nice guy act because I thought it would get Guybrush to realize that the Voodoo Lady-"

    Actually, Elaine's voice and subtitle say, "Look, I let you capture me and I played along with your stupid 'nice guy' act because I thought that it would get Guybrush to realize that the Voodoo Lady is--" [her voice ends with "the Voodoo Lady is--"]
Sign in to comment in this discussion.