[SPOILERS] Just did my Villain playthrogh and wow. Was it even made by the same team?

The music, the voice acting, the characters. Wow... it’s definitely takes the title of the best episode of the season. I can’t help but feel that this was Telltale’s vision and that the vigilante episode was made AFTER this masterpiece was made. I love how this episode centred around Bruce. (Always thought he was more interesting to play as.)
The funhouse scene, the fight scene at Ace Chemicals, the final fight with Joker, his dialogue. And lastly, the tea party. It was just amazing.

I feel bad for the 55.1% of the players (including myself) who chose vigilante in their canon playthrough.

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  • I actually got this run first and really enjoyed it too, but I have to say I loved both. What's great about the Villain play is that whilst some players might not find it as interesting since it's a more traditional Joker it manages to make players feel real agency for turning John into your 'best enemy'. I liked the tea party sequence a lot as well, and also the means of learning about who killed Riddler was much more impactful personally this way.

  • edited March 2018

    My only gripe with the villain playthrough was the fact that Batman got his ass beat by a bunch of regular thugs. Sure, there were a lot of them, but he could have used smoke bombs and other gadgets to come out on top. Just felt like a pitiful excuse to have Bruce captured.

  • Don't take your opinion as facts, please.
    I mean ofc you can enjoy the villain playthrough, I have no problem with that, but saying you felt bad for the players who took the vigilante's path kinda means our opinions don't matter.

    As for myself I loved both and they are quite unique each others.
    For the vigilante's path the fight with Bane was awesome, the humor was really strong.. It was really a "grey" episode in term of moral, slowly beginning to understand that Joker as a hero wouldn't work. After trying to save Joker I didn't know if helping Tiffany was a good idea for example.
    The Joker by himself was a really strong point, his design, his remarks.. He carried the episode and it was really original. Seeing the new take on Joker I don't regret one moment that it is my cannon.

    For the villain's path we got the dinner, I really felt threatened (it was settled with that awesome intro).. It was clearly more black and white and you really like to hate the Joker. I guess they were inspired by "death of the family", it kinda felt that way to me at least.

  • edited March 2018

    That was never my intention!

    Yes, I agree Joker carried the episode. But I simply cannot agree that he did in the Vigilante path. He seemed more violent and unstable, completely unlike the John I knew and liked so much.

    I would argue the villain path was more grey. Did Joker truly think of Bruce as an enemy, a friend, or is it all of it one big joke? In the dinner party, he was SO hesistant for Bruce to be killed. Harley wanted to end it several times but John stopped her. (If you stayed by his side till the very end and you cooperated with him.)
    There was this choice whether to sell John out or ask for his help. I’m surprised 94% of the players sold him out. Seriously? If you asked for help, he would ACTUALLY SAVE YOU and get Harley pissed off.

    Coupled with the fact that in the final fight, he wanted Bruce to remember their memories together... with a stab to the knee. I agree it was extreme but it really felt like he cared for Bruce. A lot. Now that you think about it, it was Bruce’s fault he became the way he is, and Joker knows it. Which is why he hates him. But at the same time. Deep down. The John Doe that’s Bruce once knew, is still down there.

    Lastly, to prove my point. Look at the relationship screen at the end. Vigilante Joker would actually think BRUCE IS INSANE IF YOU TOLD HIM YOU’RE FRIENDS. Wow, so much for backing him up all the time.
    At least in the Villain version, John actually appreciates it.

    Not only that, Selina and Avesta both play a larger role in the Villain playthrough. We got no closure with Selina or Avesta. We could advise them on what to do, but it never really went anywhere. Unlike the Villain playthrough, where Avesta looks forward to working at Wayne Enterprises and Selina can start a new life. The Selina fight on the rooftop was crap compared to the funhouse scene.

    Villain route also has more hubs. Around 5-7 hubs in total, each with interesting things to do and see. (Puzzles etc.)
    Vigilante route has 2/3 hubs tops.

    Therefore, I honestly feel that the Vigilante path has NO redeeming quality and feels like one big afterthought. You might argue again that the villain playthrough contained a lot of casualties. But hey, did anyone care about Regina? Or Bullock? Or random NPC #503? The only casualty that I cared about was Gordon’s. But hey, at least he got his old job back, aye?

    Euron posted: »

    Don't take your opinion as facts, please. I mean ofc you can enjoy the villain playthrough, I have no problem with that, but say

  • I think they did a great job with both plays...it was really chilling at points.....well done to the team.

  • That felt that way but ok, no problem man.
    Well I think Vigilante Joker felt more crazy because he tried to restrain his dark impulse. In the villain's path he doesn't burst but that's probably because he let "his dark side" works H24. It is clear he killed more people in that path than in the other.
    As for considering the casualties.. Well ofc we won't feel the way we feel if it happened irl. But approaching this it only depends on how you play the game. As Batman I tried to avoid all casualties and he lost almost all support in his private life, it felt like some tragedy. Now it's still opinion but seeing what Joker would have been as a hero was really a great moment in this episode.

    I actually asked for help to villain Joker. It was clear he didn't want me to die so it felt like the best move. But it's not an act out of compassion, it's because he needs the Batman to exist. He said it, he's the villain of his dream and none of them are going to kill each other, so it will go forever. That's the beautiful thing he's talking about.

    As for the vigilante ending you don't need to take it literally. He's clearly joking seeing he's the mad one and I think his mind was clear when he acknowledged that. Kinda looks like the killing Joke's end..

    That and the fact that it's the only ending where he's genuinely happy to see Bruce.

    ScootyZ posted: »

    That was never my intention! Yes, I agree Joker carried the episode. But I simply cannot agree that he did in the Vigilante pat

  • As much as I loved the villain episode.. I MUCH prefered Vigilante :D But I prefer the LOOK of villain joker - love his make up and clothing!

  • edited March 2018

    I’ve actually played both episodes twice and still prefer vigilante. It’s not because I like John as a friend either. There’s just something about the villain episode that doesn’t do it for me as much as the vigilante episode.

  • Both episodes are great but I liked the vigilante playthrough. The villain Joker is more actual to the Joker of comic books compare to the vigilante one. But that's what I like about the vigilante playthrough.

  • edited March 2018

    Loved my first Vigilante playthrough. You say your intention isn't to shit on it but that seems like the whole point of this thread. That's great you liked the other route but respect others who feel differently, and the dev team for making 2 entirely different episodes that average at the same length. Despite all this I'm excited to try out the villain route when I get around to it.

  • I feel the complete opposite. Vigilante playthrough was leagues better and wrapped up all of the story arcs much better than the villain playthrough did. Vigilante Joker even turned out to be even crazier and more terrifying than the villain Joker, who came across as really whiny and pathetic and made you play a game of "never have I ever" like at a teenage slumber party. Also didn't like how you are Bruce for 90% of the episode, how there's no Tiffany/Batgirl choice, no crime scene investigation with Gordon, no Suicide Squad, etc.... both were fun was vigilante Joker was infinitely more satisfying.

  • Personally what I liked about villain Joker compared to Vigilante Joker is that he really did feel like the true Joker. He had that confidence, swagger, and even more warped sense of humor that defines who the Joker is.

    That "never have I ever" moment felt like the kind of thing The Joker would do, turning something childish or light into something that rubs all your failures or sins in your face and hurts you.

    Vigilante Joker, by comparison, was more awkward, fun, and endearing because there were still traces of John in there until he went off the deep end.

    I feel the complete opposite. Vigilante playthrough was leagues better and wrapped up all of the story arcs much better than the v

  • edited March 2018

    Once again I feel like it is the opposite. I couldn't disagree more.

    Villain John is deeply insecure and whiny and he talks and acts very much like John Doe. His feelings are hurt but all his games and lessons get very old very fast and failed to make me feel guilty. It was kind of a one note tune. He wanted Bruce to feel bad about "creating" him but I never felt like that was truly the case, unlike my role for vigilante Joker.

    Whereas vigilante Joker is awkward, fun, and endearing in literally only the first couple minutes of the game, he ends up losing his freaking mind while bombing the GCPD and trying to murder Waller and everyone else. Didn't you see the scene where he cuts two agents throats out, guts another while throwing him into a chemical vat, and then attacks Batman all while reduced to a hysterical laughing maniac with blood all over his face? THAT is the terrifying Joker I wanted and expected, not the whiny John Doe who feels so betrayed that Bruce simply doubted him about a sketchy situation.

    Vigilante Joker > Villain Joker any day.

    Frontier246 posted: »

    Personally what I liked about villain Joker compared to Vigilante Joker is that he really did feel like the true Joker. He had tha

  • The scene where Batnan says "oh John" or something like that and Johns response is "ITS JOKERRRR" and then literally cannot stop laughing..

    Amazing!!

    Though you then turn back to Batman and you can see how broken he is :(

  • That moment is so painful.. very well done animation on Batman's face, conveyed how much it hurt, exactly what I was feeling at the moment too.

    hanwombat posted: »

    The scene where Batnan says "oh John" or something like that and Johns response is "ITS JOKERRRR" and then literally cannot stop laughing.. Amazing!! Though you then turn back to Batman and you can see how broken he is

  • Totally. So much pain :(

    lilsnek posted: »

    That moment is so painful.. very well done animation on Batman's face, conveyed how much it hurt, exactly what I was feeling at the moment too.

  • I dunno, I think you look at those scenes at the Wayne Enterprises attack, with his goons, and even at the funhouse and he's much more self-assured, confident, and focused then he was before or as a Vigilante. I think the closest he came to "whining" about what Bruce did to John Doe was during the suspect game at the funhouse, but even that was pretty demented.

    And when you commit mass-murder on a grand scale, starting with your Archenemy's place of business, I'd say you're doing a pretty good job of making your foe feel bad. Even moreso when you move onto a Church and make it all into a joke.

    I think the difference with Vigilante Joker and Villain Joker is that, with the former, we get John trying his best to emulate Batman and abide by his rules but his own insanity, obsessions, and hangups ultimately break him and turn him into the true Joker. Villain Joker, by comparison, seems to have found a calling to where he can channel all of that in a focused and direct way, so he doesn't have the same breakdown Vigilante Joker did.

    At least that's my two cents on the subject.

    Once again I feel like it is the opposite. I couldn't disagree more. Villain John is deeply insecure and whiny and he talks and

  • edited April 2018

    Villain Joker honestly came off to me as softer towards Bruce than the vigilante Joker did in the final.

    Villain Joker constantly stalled Harley because he really didn’t want to kill Bruce. I don’t think vigilante Joker would have hesitated to kill Batman once the fight started in ace chemicals.

  • Vigilante Joker was having a pshycotic outburst. Its obvious he wasn't in control during most of the fight, that's why he spends most of it laughing like a madman.

    Besides, Joker letting Batman live is something very common in the character history. He usually wants him to live.

    AnimalBoy posted: »

    Villain Joker honestly came off to me as softer towards Bruce than the vigilante Joker did in the final. Villain Joker constant

  • edited April 2018

    I’m well aware of the Joker’s usual methods and motivations. Just thought villain Joker was kind of too soft considering he was supposed to be the “Bad” outcome.

    DOBLEDEDO posted: »

    Vigilante Joker was having a pshycotic outburst. Its obvious he wasn't in control during most of the fight, that's why he spends m

    • Blowing up a hospital, a bridge, a warehouse, one of the biggest companies in Gotham, killing hundreds of people with bombs and a deadly virus, planning to kill pretty much the whole city, torturing Bruce both physically and psychologically...

    • Being to soft

    Pick one

    Sure he does hesitate at the end but I see it more that he is not completely satisfied with his torturing... if he had a chance he would probably keep it going for a while longer but in a near future, he would still kill Bruce or worse...(Yes, there are worse things then dying)

    AnimalBoy posted: »

    I’m well aware of the Joker’s usual methods and motivations. Just thought villain Joker was kind of too soft considering he was supposed to be the “Bad” outcome.

  • edited April 2018

    We’re talking about being soft towards Bruce. Not anything else he did.

    I completely disagree with him eventually killing Bruce. The villain Joker didn’t have the heart. Yeah, he wanted to torture him but he still wanted him alive. Not because he wanted to continue the torture but because he just couldn’t do it. He thwarted Harley at every turn when she wanted to kill Bruce even risking her anger in the process. Why? Because he cares more about Bruce then he does Harley. As stated above, Joker has never had the heart to kill Batman. Even when he had the chance. He can’t live without him.

    Vigilante Joker on the other hand showed no hesitation in his desire to kill Batman. He was in such a state of mind that I never doubted that the Joker would stick those knives in Batman’s chest if Batman didn’t stop him.

    19Street95 posted: »

    * Blowing up a hospital, a bridge, a warehouse, one of the biggest companies in Gotham, killing hundreds of people with bombs and

  • Okay so if we are only talking about things that Joker did towards Bruce in episode 5 it is still quite a list to be fair.

    • Joker releases a deadly virus at Bruce's company pretty much killing all his colleagues and makes Bruce watch it.
    • Joker lures Bruce into a trap and then let his men beat him up.
    • Joker sends Bruce on a deadly and psychological game to understand how much "harm" Bruce have caused him and other people. (In which of these games Bruce needs to dislocate his thump, get electrified, walk through a tunnel of broken glass, nails, chains...)
    • Joker captures the people that are the closest to Bruce and threatens to kill them.
    • Joker beat up Bruce and his friends for being "horrible" persons.
    • Joker stabs Bruce multiple times.
    • Joker tries to mentally break Bruce down.

    Joker does kill Bruce multiple times if you fail some of the QTE, if you remain silent he allows Harley to release the deadly virus so everybody dies. If you miss some of the QTE in the fight scenes Joker brutally stabs you to death, shoots, throw his knife at you... so he does not have any problem to kill you when it all comes down. The only reason like I said before why he did not kill us earlier is that I believe he really wanted to break Bruce down while Harley just wanted it to be over.

    In the Vigilante ending Joker probably gets a psychosis and snaps before killing the agents... probably the same thing that happens in episode 4 at the carnival... that's why he got trouble remembering exactly what happened.

    When the fight is over and Joker snaps out of it he is pretty much harmless once again and back to good old John... while villain Joker is never harmless and even when you think Bruce reaches to his old friend John... Joker stabs him once more.

    So to make a short point, I really don't how villain Joker is "soft" in any way. He is the evilest character we have seen in these two seasons so far in Telltales Batman, there is only Harley that could be perhaps just as bad as him.

  • edited April 2018

    It’s an opinion. No need to go into full step by step presentation try and debunk it mode.

  • Well, this is a discussion forum after all... so if I see somebody saying something that I don't think is quite right I will respond on it and try to give my reasons why I think so. There will always be different opinions on different topics, I thought that's the reason we are here after all... to discuss things?

    If you feel your opinion has been "attacked"... that's just silly.

    People must be able to say what they think and add reasons to why they think like they think.

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