Telltale Autumn Sale

Was killing Lee a mistake?

I'm not talking in the short-term sense, as there's no doubt the ending was the one thing most people remembered about the game. But in long-term, it sort of put Telltale in a bind when it came to continuing the story.

You have to view these games almost like an interactive TV show (an aesthetic approach Telltale themselves confirmed when they referred to the next series as "season 2", not to mention the "Previously on the Walking Dead/Next Time on the Walking Dead" clips seen at the beginning and end of each episode). In TV shows, the lead protagonist doesn't usually die. Not at the end of the first season, anyway.

I think it's somewhat safe to assume the Telltale writing team is probably jumping through the same hoops we are in terms of what to do next. We've speculated almost a dozen different ways about who the lead in season 2 could be, and every idea, no matter what it is, has come with its share of problems.

I know that even suggesting this out loud will get me lynched, but I can't help wondering if Telltale will reveal story events from Lee's bite onwards was just a nightmare Clementine had, just to bypass all the headaches they're probably having to go through in story sessions. To be honest, I wouldn't blame them. :o

Comments

  • edited February 2013
    It definitely threw a wrench in the machine, but I don't think it was a mistake. First of all, it seems Lee was not the main character of the series. That would be Clementine. Lee was the player avatar. There is a difference. If the game let us play as Clementine from the beginning, it would be a rather uneventful game. She spends most of the time waiting in "safe" zones.

    That, and the story was about her growing and becoming prepared to take care of herself. Notice how we skipped Lee's training between episode 1 and 2? His (our) growth wasn't important to show, but whenever he passed on his knowledge, the game let us know that Clementine will remember.

    Killing Lee off allows Telltale to come up with a new character to learn about in the same manner. Sure, it might be odd seeing familiar faces and having the player's initial reaction be something that should be associated with Lee and there's a risk of it feeling too similar, but it's not impossible to make it work.

    I'm going to wait (anxiously) for season 2 to see just how good the writing team actually is. If they can make season 2 just as memorable as season 1, then I'll be stoked.
  • edited February 2013
    RIP Lee, I pray for him everyday I MISS him so much :c
  • edited February 2013
    It makes for a great game, but it will be tough to play anyone else in Season 2 because it wasn't like we were playing Lee, we WERE Lee and they killed us off. I have confidence that Telltale knows what they're doing, but I have a bad feeling it won't be the same.
  • edited February 2013
    I agree with Yertos ^^ And I also think that TT will put a lot more work into season 2 than season 1 just because Lee won't be there anymore, they would want to make it as enjoyable as possible.
  • edited February 2013
    It was the right ending,Lee had to die so Clem could continue his legacy herself. Although i think TTG should not kill off the season 2 protagonist because after Lee dying everyone will be expecting the next protagonist to die aswell.
  • edited February 2013
    I completely agree with looking at this as an interactive TV series instead of just a video game series, and killing off a major character can have negative repercussions on a series. You could make an argument that Clem was the main character, but the story is told from Lee's perspective, we see what he sees and we know what he knows.

    Killing off Lee got a huge reaction from the fan base, and that was probably TTG's goal, but I'm a little worried that they may have sacrificed some of the long-term quality of the series in favor of a big, dramatic ending to S1. I'm still confident they can deliver an excellent second season, but I'm not sure they can replace a character like Lee, or hit the same highs they hit in S1.
  • edited February 2013
    If it was up to Kirkman, Clem would have died too.
  • edited February 2013
    The response from fans was so great that you definetly can't call it a mistake. But I bet that TTG writers are coming to the same conclusion as people on this forum: all new PC have some cons and it none of them can top Lee.
    Nuked wrote: »
    If it was up to Kirkman, Clem would have died too.

    Man, thank God it's not up to him.

    Robert Kirkman and George R. R. Martin have this strange talent. They can make me want to strangle them to death with my bare hands by just killing fictional characters.
  • edited February 2013
    I'm glad TTG stuck to it's guns and killed Lee....

    Not that I wanted Lee dead, but to alter their original plan - in the face of additional seasons - might have lead to a crappier overall storyline - since they obviously hadn't prepared for Lee's continuation.
  • edited February 2013
    Nuked wrote: »
    If it was up to Kirkman, Clem would have died too.

    When the series first started I looked at Lee & Clementine as Telltale's version of Rick & Carl. I don't think Kirkman would have killed them both off.
  • edited February 2013
    It's been said before on here, but my main concern with a new protagonist is how they will interact with the characters from S1. If I had a certain relationship with Clem as Lee, for example, I wouldn't be able to have the same relationship with a new PC. The new PC will have a different understanding/opinion of certain characters than Lee's (and mine).

    That's just my concern anyway. I don't at all doubt Telltale's ability to successfully continue the series. Season 1 was one of the best video games I've ever played, so I have a lot of faith in them.
  • edited February 2013
    What you have to think is, The zombies always prevail noone can survive forever. So when the new walking dead game comes out i guess we cant have much high hopes :( Although its awsome playing the game and having it toy with your emotions as it rips your favorite characters apart...
  • edited February 2013
    My concern is that they're never going to hit the same emotional reaction in Season 2, and will be looked down upon for it... unless they kill Clem anyway. Every moment from here on is going to be compared to Lee's demise, so they are going to need to really do well to try and get past that.
  • edited February 2013
    I really think that was big mistake... Lee died, and with him part of me, he was ME in the game, and my choices making Him doing anything... I would be happy if he SOMEHOW survived :D. Or something like troll season 2 beginning : Lee wakes up in the house from ep 4, next to clem and realize that was dream or Waking up after Amputation :D
  • edited February 2013
    Yertos wrote: »
    It makes for a great game, but it will be tough to play anyone else in Season 2 because it wasn't like we were playing Lee, we WERE Lee and they killed us off. I have confidence that Telltale knows what they're doing, but I have a bad feeling it won't be the same.

    Couldn't agree more, sigh.
  • edited February 2013
    TTG killing off Lee was good if it were the end of the series. But to try to make a second season to top the first will be difficult. I don't know how they are going to do it, especially if any season 1 characters are involved. To my knowledge they never had a second season in mind when they wrote the first one; so they probably don't know themselves how to start the new season. It will probably be a very long time before we see season 2.
  • edited February 2013
    I just have to say watch us all get trolled in season 2 xD. I mean, TWD is carrying the saves over to season 2, meaning certain choices matter. So what if you could still save Lee? What if, if you made the right choices, he ends up being in the game alive? Or better yet, on the hilltop with another unconfirmed character like Molly or Kenny, depending on your decisions? Or just a random person/generic if you failed the requirements. What if making the wrong decisions end up with him becoming undead and killing your PC?

    Let me explain ;)

    You can cut off his arm early on in ch 5. Then you can choose not to handcuff him, and not to shoot him. He no longer has the bite, can now move if he gets better, and can escape with the door now unlocked. And if he needs some help we have other characters that are unknown that could come to the rescue (if blood loss was problem or magically immune :D) I think it would be interesting and would mess with a lot of heads to have Lee come back alive, even if just for a few minutes speaking with the PC before being truly killed off. That'd make me feel accomplished.

    I know it sounds like a long shot but you have to admit there is almost no way Clem could have rescued Lee, carrying him into that store. Maybe she got help? Or maybe someone distracted the zombies to give her enough time to get them to safety?(because I think someone falling over would attract zombies!)

    I think what we did will affect Lee somehow in the future. Even if minuscule.

    As a whole if Lee is absolutely dead without any trace of doubt than I'd say it wasn't a mistake. He went out like the badass we all knew he was. He saved a little girl that wasn't his but thought of as his own. He risked his life countless times for her, and to me, that was a good enough send off. Despite being a believer of the "I love you" discussion, I think killing Lee in this way was a good job. In my eyes, he has redeemed himself, and I think, if only for a little while, was truly happy with Clem.
  • edited March 2013
    BlackBoxx wrote: »
    It definitely threw a wrench in the machine, but I don't think it was a mistake. First of all, it seems Lee was not the main character of the series. That would be Clementine. Lee was the player avatar. There is a difference. If the game let us play as Clementine from the beginning, it would be a rather uneventful game. She spends most of the time waiting in "safe" zones.

    That, and the story was about her growing and becoming prepared to take care of herself. Notice how we skipped Lee's training between episode 1 and 2? His (our) growth wasn't important to show, but whenever he passed on his knowledge, the game let us know that Clementine will remember.

    Killing Lee off allows Telltale to come up with a new character to learn about in the same manner. Sure, it might be odd seeing familiar faces and having the player's initial reaction be something that should be associated with Lee and there's a risk of it feeling too similar, but it's not impossible to make it work.

    I'm going to wait (anxiously) for season 2 to see just how good the writing team actually is. If they can make season 2 just as memorable as season 1, then I'll be stoked.
    When the game started out it wasn't intended to be part of a series. Telltale made the decision to do another season later down the line but wanted to stick with their original story and game ending. Lee was definitely the protagonist of the first game.

    Telltale challanged conventions by killing of their protagonist. This happens in movies but does not really happen in ongoing stories. Eli was the the protagonist of "The book of Eli" as was the Viggo Mortensen character in "The road" movie. The stories centre around them. We see the world through their eyes. We learn what is going on in the walking dead game through Lee's experiences not Clementine's. Clementine was aware of the outbreak before Lee was in the way that Duane was aware of the outbreak before Rick Grimes. Lee even narrates at the end of the first episode when he talks about the walkers starving them out in the preview for episode 2.

    Clementine's role in the walking dead game was to act as our/Lee's morale compass. "From the beginning, the designers knew they wanted a character that would act as a moral compass for the main character as he progressed through the game," art director David Sakai said. "The designers envisioned a smart, honest, and capable girl around eight years old."(Game informer interview with Telltale art director-http://www.polygon.com/2012/12/26/3805442/the-walking-dead-story-clementine-telltale)

    As to Whether or not I think it was a mistake to kill of the main character/protagonist, I think that decision is fine if the story ends there but it's not a good idea if you have a change of heart and decide to continue the story. Telltale now, have a herculean task of establishing a new protagonist in a continuing story, particularly if they are expected to bond with Clementine in a belivable way. I would bet my bottom dollar that they wouldn't of killed off Lee if they knew that they were going to do more than one walking dead game when starting the project.

    When other game developers decide to add to franchises after the death of protagonists they often end up doing prequels because they can't take the protagonist's story any further like with God of war assension and the new Metal gear games Konami have planned but as Telltale don't have that option I think it will be intersting to see where they go from here.
  • edited March 2013
    Well they've shot themselves quite an arrow to the knee (I know people get tired of that... :D ), since a 2nd season wasn't planned right away, but from what I've seen I think if anyone can find a way that perfectly makes sense to continue the story, it would be them, I'll wait for it, and I'll play it, even if it will turn out to be a little odd, or something, I know they will deliver a overall great game, maybe with some plotholes due to this little problem we face here, but they'll manage...
  • edited March 2013
    Crixus wrote: »
    It was the right ending,Lee had to die so Clem could continue his legacy herself. Although i think TTG should not kill off the season 2 protagonist because after Lee dying everyone will be expecting the next protagonist to die aswell.
    If by legacy you mean Lee's teaching, then his death was not necessary for her to apply what he taught her. Lee's death was for emotional impact. It made the story more sad for us playing the game. Lee's death would only of furthered her development if she was going to be living on her own. She had already experienced dealing with separation and loss when she lost her parents.

    I don't imagine Clementine being on her own for long, especially if Omid and Christa were the people we saw on the hill. If she does reunite with them her role in the group would be the same as it was in season one. She would be under their protection as before.

    I say this to say that Lee's death was powerful, it was emotional but it was not necessary for Clementine's development. It was necessary to make the saddest story, which was telltale's goal way before they planned to do another season.
  • edited March 2013
    It's kinda hard to argue if it was right or wrong. As mentioned many times before. Telltale was just gonna make one season and they wanted to end it with a bang. But did the first REAL ending end with Clem going to that hill or was it something they added when they knew Season 2 was coming?

    Also remember, they did announce Season 2 long before the final episodes got released. Do we even know they went for their original ending or not?

    As much as i would want to continue playing Lee. I think this is a good move for a Walking dead game. No one is safe, not the characters you interact with, nor the ones you play as. That's just as much "Walking dead" it gets for a video game.

    I've been taking walks at night, thinking to myself how to continue this and i really don't know. This game is canon to the comic (which shows when they changed Lilly's backstory), they could meet up with any character from there and any events that has happen there. Now the game before and now hopefully does something on it's own, but it was nice seeing what Glenn was doing before he meet Rick and same goes with Hershel. Anything can happen. That's what's so good about this. Almost impossible to find out what will happen.

    What will the overall story be this time? At the start it was just about survival, it then changed to moving somewhere safe, then a boat, and last but not least saving Clem. Will there even be an overall story other than survival, will we have a bigger goal this time?

    I'm not saying this cause the game had no goal. It had. It just took a while to get there and it was well worth the wait. What ever will happen, i have full faith in Telltale Games.
  • edited March 2013
    Nuked wrote: »
    If it was up to Kirkman, Clem would have died too.
    I know we can never truly know what Kirkman would have done if he was writing the story but I don't think he would of killed off Lee or Clementine. I think he would off kept them alive but made bad things happen to them, showing their characters changing over time because of the world their living in as they were the main characters and the foundation of the story. But this is just an opinion.

    To me Kirkman's main characters just seem more capable. When I think about how Lee got bitten. Lilly reminisces about being in a similar situation in the novel but in her case she escaped. I loved the game but sometimes I did think characters did stupid and unbelievable things because it was there time to go. e.g Ben waiting for the stairs to give way when he had time to run back before he fell and got impaled in the alley, Kenny waiting in the alleyway after mercy killing Ben when he had time to run back and join Lee,Ben deciding not to run and follow Lee out the window in the bell tower, allowing time for the zombie to grab him and so on.

    So yeah! I think if Kirkman was writing the story the key characters would have lasted more than 13 weeks. Just because I think his writing is more belivable than Telltale's, what with it being only their fisrt attempt at writing a walking dead story and the fact that he has been writing them for over 8 years.
  • edited March 2013
    Rizefall wrote: »
    It's kinda hard to argue if it was right or wrong. As mentioned many times before. Telltale was just gonna make one season and they wanted to end it with a bang. But did the first REAL ending end with Clem going to that hill or was it something they added when they knew Season 2 was coming?

    Also remember, they did announce Season 2 long before the final episodes got released. Do we even know they went for their original ending or not?

    Telltale has stated that Lee's death and Clem being alone and uncertain in a grassy field was planned since day one(the stranger possibly too), so those points at least weren't changed after they started on Season 2. It does kinda work either way, it can be a cliffhanger to leave it up the players to decide or it can lead into the next title if they choose.
  • edited March 2013
    Mornai wrote: »
    Telltale has stated that Lee's death and Clem being alone and uncertain in a grassy field was planned since day one(the stranger possibly too), so those points at least weren't changed after they started on Season 2. It does kinda work either way, it can be a cliffhanger to leave it up the players to decide or it can lead into the next title if they choose.

    That's cool. I'm happy it continues. I would not want a cliffhanger like that.
  • edited March 2013
    HUGE MISTAKE :D Hopefully Telltale will release a patch for the screw up LOL he didnt DIE ,he was DEAD TIRED :D
  • edited March 2013
    Clemmy1 wrote: »
    HUGE MISTAKE :D Hopefully Telltale will release a patch for the screw up LOL he didnt DIE ,he was DEAD TIRED :D

    Can't you state WHY it was a mistake instead of saying it was?
  • edited March 2013
    Lol
  • edited March 2013
    It was a mistake. I do not know if ANY character can fill Lee's shoes. Most people grew attachment to Lee. In S2 I think people will not emotional invest because of his death. Why care if I know they are gonna die. On top of that Clems relationship with Lee is a strong one and I cannot see another character feeling that void. Definitly not Christa Omid Lily Vernon. Maybe Kenny if he is alive but lets face it Ken is no Lee. Why should some new character give a shit about Clem other than she is a 9 year old in the ZA. On the other hand why would Clem warm up to anybody after her real parents and Lee are dead. I just do not see where the story can be as impactful as S1. They are probably going to kill Clem for this reason. :( I am still gonna play it but.....
  • edited March 2013
    SON O REALMENTE SON CIEGOS, Lee es el personaje que usaríamos para desplazarnos dentro del juego no el personaje principal, Clementine es la brújula del juego, Herchel Greene y Kenny lo sabían te lo dijeron varias veces incluso Chuck te lo menciono una vez más, se aferran en una historia que el bueno debe morir, cada vez que hacias algo mal Clementine te lo decía con palabras o con señas. Telltale se basó con los resultados que la mayoría, si jugaron el juego varias veces el Record cambia de pésimo a bueno, se enfocaron en hacer el mal, satisfechos, volvieron a jugar como personas honestas pero no se figaron en las señales que colocaron, para que ya sabían que seguía. Recuerda tu peor record y vete en el espejo observa porque esa persona fuiste tú Lee un cobarde que dejo a una niña sola sin protección, Ya estas satisfecho.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<OR ARE REALLY ARE BLIND, Lee is the character you would use to move within the game not the main character, Clementine is the compass of the game, Herchel Greene and Kenny knew what you said several times even Chuck you mention it again, is cling to a story that the good must die, every time you did something wrong Clementine told you so in words or signs. Telltale was based on the results that most, if they played the game several times Terrible Record changes to good, focused on doing evil, satisfied, returned to play as honest but not figaron placed on signals to they already knew was coming. Remember your worst record in the mirror and go see because that person was you Lee a coward that left a child alone without protection, you're happy.
  • edited March 2013
    It was a mistake. I do not know if ANY character can fill Lee's shoes. Most people grew attachment to Lee. In S2 I think people will not emotional invest because of his death. Why care if I know they are gonna die. On top of that Clems relationship with Lee is a strong one and I cannot see another character feeling that void. Definitly not Christa Omid Lily Vernon. Maybe Kenny if he is alive but lets face it Ken is no Lee. Why should some new character give a shit about Clem other than she is a 9 year old in the ZA. On the other hand why would Clem warm up to anybody after her real parents and Lee are dead. I just do not see where the story can be as impactful as S1. They are probably going to kill Clem for this reason. :( I am still gonna play it but.....

    Clem would be the only one that could do it for me.
  • edited March 2013
    (...) On top of that Clems relationship with Lee is a strong one and I cannot see another character feeling that void. (...)

    That is my biggest concern about season 2... I worry if she will be in it at all (it's not confirmed... or is it? I mean officially, 100%, no doubt?) since continuing the story is going to be tough for TTG, with Lee dead and all, the only characters that could have some sort of bond with/to (?) her would be Omid and Christa, because she likes them a lot, she would probably warm up to them, but it wouldn't be as strong as the Clem-Lee bond... hope they won't kill her off for that reason...
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