Telltale Autumn Sale

What's with everyone hating on Kenny?

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  • edited February 2013
    Random people? That's what Lee, Clem, Carley/Doug, Kenny, Kat and Duck were to her? The people who have been taking risks, fetching supplies, putting their lives on the line for months at a time and helping to keep her safe? Just a bunch of random people? Just tools for her to use? The only reason there even was an R.V. to take is because Kenny had the common sense to fix it. If he had listened to Lilly they'd have none and everyone probably would have died during the bandit attack.

    Tell me, do you think Vernon gets more hate than he deserves? Because compared to Lilly he was a god damn saint. He helps Omid, get's you into Crawford to get the things Kenny needs to fix the boat and loses one of his own people in the process. Then he steals a boat that he was partially responsible for repairing to save the people he was taking care of for months over the lives of people he's known for less than twenty-four hours.

    And the reason for that being his people knew the approaching hoard would make staying in Savannah impossible, so they did a shitty thing to save their own skins when a looming threat (the hoard) presented itself. And even then, depending on who stays with the boat, it's suggested he does at least feel guilty about. Either with his note saying he was sorry or Ben telling everyone how pissed he was the group lost Clementine, probably because he wanted to take her with him.

    Vernon didn't pull a gun and shoot someone in a paranoid fit of petty rage (all though Brie wanted him to do that), complain about how him murdering someone in cold blood is causing other people to treat him like shit, then steal a vehicle he spent months bitching about as a waste of time to save just himself and no one else. He didn't sit on his ass when the group needed supplies either, he went right into the fire and brought another one of his people with him.

    Fuck, Ben has more courage than Lilly. Ben, like Lilly, is blamed for people's deaths, ironically including whoever Lilly murdered. Ben, unlike Lilly, isn't a goddamn sociopath. Ben feels horrid guilt over the things he's done, unlike Lilly who complains about being detained for committing murder. Ben owns up to what he does (at the WORST possible time though) and accepts the consequences, going as far as to ask Lee to let him die for what he's done.

    You think Lilly gets more hate than she deserves? That's fine, that's your opinion. In my opinion she was a worthless irredeemable cunt who liked bossing people around because it meant she could keep her bony chickenshit ass parked somewhere safe while other people died for her safety. Different strokes for different folks.

    But you're fucking crazy if you think she would have gone with Lee to get Clementine. She thinks Ben dealing with the bandits is the same as cutting your throat while you sleep? How would you think Lilly would react when she found out Clementine had been secretly dealing with a stranger over the radio? Fuck, I felt kinda betrayed when I found that out and I loved Clementine.

    You really think queen bitch, who up and left Clem and Lee after lying about taking them along, is going to risk her life to get Clementine back? The same girl she yelled at Carley for saving back in Macon? After Clementine went behind the group's back to chase a pipe dream a weirdo over a radio was offering her? When there's a fully working escape vehicle sitting right there? I take it back, Lilly wouldn't have gone with Vernon's group if she was in that situation, she would have stolen the boat before Vernon's people ever even got there.

    My biggest regret on my first play through was letting her back in the R.V. I figured she deserved a second chance because Lee got a second chance after killing someone in an emotional state and he went on to do a lot of good for a lot of people. Lilly's given a second chance and she immediately back stabs everyone the very first moment she gets, after shooting one of them in the back of the head a little earlier. All because she was afraid of what? Exile? Isn't that exactly what Lee prevented if you choose to not leave her on the side of the road?

    Fuck the bitch. Now that she's an "original character" I hope she pops up in season two and we're given the opportunity to finish what we started in season one and finally putting her out of everyone's misery.

    I agree with everything there :P 'cause, no matter what, Lilly is gonna betray you but Kenny has your back if you've got his. I hate her so much...I can't see how people can stick up for her after episode 3. Yeh, what Kenny does isn't really moral...but he had a valid reason for doing it.
  • edited February 2013
    Rozzer616 wrote: »
    I wasn't actually saying they're cowardly, I was using them as examples (seeing as calling them cowardly is stupid) to show how stupid it is to call Kenny cowardly, in those circumstances.

    But it isn't stupid to say Kenny acted cowardly. He did. He makes up for it, and feels incredibly guilty over it, but he did respond with cowardice. He looked right at Lee and his face said he was afraid.

    Even if it wasn't out of fear, Kenny still outright abandoned someone who needed his help. Kenny was the only one available able to help save Shawn, yet he didn't. It's a perfectly valid reason to hate Kenny.
  • edited February 2013
    I replayed a few episodes a few days ago and decided to just go cowboy in most of my options. Basically I told everyone they were a piece of shit, were brutally honest and always tried to pick a fight. This radically skewed how I felt about a lot of people.

    In my original playthrough I acted as a I thought would benefit the group most, always trying to be diplomatic and not even trying to fight Kenny or tell Larry to go fk himself. As a result, I heavily disliked Kenny, heavily disliked Larry and was furious at Lily.

    In the second playthrough, when I went cowboy, I only mildly disliked Kenny, didn't care about Larry but still was furious at Lily. It was extremely interesting how my view of these people changed because of my own behavior.
  • edited February 2013
    BlackBoxx wrote: »
    But it isn't stupid to say Kenny acted cowardly. He did. He makes up for it, and feels incredibly guilty over it, but he did respond with cowardice. He looked right at Lee and his face said he was afraid.

    Even if it wasn't out of fear, Kenny still outright abandoned someone who needed his help. Kenny was the only one available able to help save Shawn, yet he didn't. It's a perfectly valid reason to hate Kenny.

    In those circumstances, he wasn't a coward. You're basing it on what Lee did, which was brave. It would've been cowardly to run as soon as the zombies appeared. Seeing the trouble Shawn was in, and how close the zombies were to him, it would've been normal for Kenny to think that the guy was doomed anyway. Anyway... he could've just been trying to get Duck away from the zombies in case they got through the fence.
  • edited February 2013
    The Fallen wrote: »
    He was fundamentally a good guy, but way too fickle. After everything we'd been through together for him to turn around and go " i am a christian man, but you haven't had my back" was massively prickish when I was bitted and needed his help to save clem. I managed to convince him, but it was still a big "WTF Ken" moment.

    My decisions with Kenny were

    1. Tried to save Shawn
    2. Defended Kenny from Hershel's accusations/ told him shawns death wasn't his fault
    3. "we reason with him"
    4. Fed him and Duck (along with Clem and Carley)
    5. Was on the fence with him and Lilly's arguing, leaning towards Kenny
    6. Helped him deal with Larry
    7. Told him i was a killer
    8. Thought he should be the one to shoot Duck.
    9. Comforted him and showed compassion over Duck & Kat
    10. Killed to boy in the attic myself
    11. Dropped Ben with his consent.

    So its not like i was an arsehole towards him, the majority of those are pro Kenny and most of those that aren't were in episode 1, at the end of which i got the "especially a good friend" line.

    The only one i'm not sure about was killing Duck, does he like you more or less if you do it? I just thought it should be Ducks family to do it. Maybe thats where i damaged our relationship.
    Oh, I can see why he said you didn't have his back.

    1) You must save Duck over Shawn.
    3) "We reason with him" is actually a pro-Larry stance.

    I'm not sure about 8 and 10... but 1 and 3 really stands out.
  • edited February 2013
    Kenny is a jerk.
  • edited February 2013
    Bullshit. Lilly fucking leaves you, Clem and everyone to rot when she steals the R.V. Even if you've agreed with her on everything, been nothing but nice to her, agree to come with her, she high tails it the hell out of there the second Lee steps out to retrieve Clementine. The bitch didn't give two shits about Clementine or anyone really.

    Hell, if the positions were switched and you tried the family card on Lilly, she probably just list every single minor offense you ever made to her oh so lovable jackass of a father who tried to murder you. "You didn't give my father your axe that one time, just because he wanted to kill you that once!"

    I've got a lot of issues with Kenny, but don't go pretending Lilly would have stepped up. She'd more likely run off with Veron's group than help you find Clementine. Just like how she stole Kenny's RV after months of bitching about what a terrible idea it was.

    Actually, I see this as a juxtaposition of how Kenny felt if you chose to side with Lilly in the meat-locker scene. After she pulled the trigger, she knew her time in the group was finished even if you did not choose to ditch her in the road.

    Nobody sided her on the theft issue in the RV, which added on to her stress since her only kin and supporter in the group's gone.

    I don't think she'd run off with Veron's group... You should remember her reaction if you chose to leave Beatrice to the Walkers and when Kenny bragged about that.

    But I think at the end of it, she felt abandoned and lonely - she couldn't trust anyone in the group any longer and so she chose to take the high road.
  • zjszjs
    edited February 2013
    The Fallen wrote: »
    He was fundamentally a good guy, but way too fickle. After everything we'd been through together for him to turn around and go " i am a christian man, but you haven't had my back" was massively prickish when I was bitted and needed his help to save clem. I managed to convince him, but it was still a big "WTF Ken" moment.

    My decisions with Kenny were

    1. Tried to save Shawn
    2. Defended Kenny from Hershel's accusations/ told him shawns death wasn't his fault
    3. "we reason with him"
    4. Fed him and Duck (along with Clem and Carley)
    5. Was on the fence with him and Lilly's arguing, leaning towards Kenny
    6. Helped him deal with Larry
    7. Told him i was a killer
    8. Thought he should be the one to shoot Duck.
    9. Comforted him and showed compassion over Duck & Kat
    10. Killed to boy in the attic myself
    11. Dropped Ben with his consent.

    So its not like i was an arsehole towards him, the majority of those are pro Kenny and most of those that aren't were in episode 1, at the end of which i got the "especially a good friend" line.

    The only one i'm not sure about was killing Duck, does he like you more or less if you do it? I just thought it should be Ducks family to do it. Maybe thats where i damaged our relationship.

    I got the same reaction from Kenny, but Lilly and Carley were my two favourite characters beyond Clem and Lee, and so I'd always been pretty neutral. I said Kenny was right about moving on and always did things like console him, reasoned with him on the train and said things weren't his fault.

    If you don't send one of the 'big' decisions his way, I think that's what does it. For me, this was probably trying CPR on Larry (for the record, in relation to the OP, if you get enough pushes in you see Larry open his eyes. Kenny could have hovered over him, ready to drop it, rather than just do it without reasoning).

    For you, I think this was telling him to shoot Duck. I'd argue that's the worst thing for him to have to do, given that it's his son and you're aware of how his family is everything to him.
  • zjszjs
    edited February 2013
    He has something of the role that Shane took on in the t.v. series. He's self-absorbed, and puts himself and his family before all else. He's brash, doesn't care about anyone if they're in his way and will do whatever it takes. Kenny, like Shane, becomes more like this as the series goes on. First off, he's having threatening words or a fight with someone, but this graduates to killing someone to stop him turning, telling you to leave someone to the walkers and giving you permission to let someone go; dooming them.

    I really like Kenny's story arc if you save Ben. He redeems himself and finally shows courage at the right moment. You see how much he cares about his family, and thus how broken he is afterwards. The way this is portrayed is so good that it's actually better than a lot of films: seeing the starved walker who reminds him of Duck, his heartbreak when he's reminded of Katjaa's suicide etc.

    As a character, he's good but unreliable. Outside of Clem and Lee, Lilly and Carley were my favourite characters. I tried to hold the group together, so I often didn't side with Kenny. It was only really after 'that scene' in episode three that I was forced to really become a lot closer to Kenny. I'd always tried to do right by him to some extent, but I'd never been in his corner on everything. He's such a pragmatist that it's hard to side with him all the time when you're trying to be the moral compass of the group, or are yet to find out Lilly/Carley's fate.

    That said, he's a great character.
  • edited February 2013
    AnekiGX wrote: »
    Actually, I see this as a juxtaposition of how Kenny felt if you chose to side with Lilly in the meat-locker scene. After she pulled the trigger, she knew her time in the group was finished even if you did not choose to ditch her in the road.

    Nobody sided her on the theft issue in the RV, which added on to her stress since her only kin and supporter in the group's gone.

    I don't think she'd run off with Veron's group... You should remember her reaction if you chose to leave Beatrice to the Walkers and when Kenny bragged about that.

    But I think at the end of it, she felt abandoned and lonely - she couldn't trust anyone in the group any longer and so she chose to take the high road.

    The high road? Abandoning six people to die? Most of which who put their lives on the line to keep her ass alive. Two of which were children. (She didn't know Duck was bitten.) That's bullshit. The high road would have been leaving the R.V. She wants to run away? I understand. On my first play through when she got loose and said she's leaving, I told her to go. I didn't want her in the group, she didn't want to be in the group anymore. Fine. It's broad day light, there's no walkers in the immediate area, she'd have a chance.

    But then she has to go and take the R.V. too, put everyone else's lives in danger because she's a fucking coward. Hey, have you ever counted how many walkers Lilly kills onscreen? Here, I'll give you guess. It rounds up to ZERO. That's because she never puts herself at risk. It's why she didn't want to leave the drug store, why she didn't want to leave the Motor Inn despite having no way to deal with methed up rapists attacking us, it's why Ben is on watch instead of her in episode three since there's people shooting back now. And it's why she takes the R.V. She's a fucking scared little girl, just like Carley said. Just wanted to snuggle up with her daddy in her hidey hole while everyone else died to keep safe.

    You really think she gave a shit about the woman in the streets in episode three? The first time you meet her she was yelling at Carley and Glenn for not letting FIVE people get eaten in the same street outside the same pharmacy. She was just picking a fight with Kenny. Had Kenny shot that girl she probably talk about she's not surprised Kenny jumped at the opportunity to shoot someone in the head. It's probably the same reason she objects to taking from the station wagon, to spite Kenny. She still does take from it though, even if Lee and Clementine refuse.

    Lilly felt abandoned and lonely? Yeah, I agree, but it's her fault. Fucking months went by and she never even tried to make friends with anyone. She doesn't trust anybody because she refuses to. No matter what anyone says or does, she simply refuses to trust anyone under any circumstances (great trait for a leader to have by the way). So it's no wonder she's fucking sad and alone in the end, she brought it on herself.

    Answer me this. Why does Lilly hate Carley? Why does she insist Carley's a traitor? What has Carley done to earn that? You talk to Carley before the bandit attack and she doesn't has anything against Lilly, she says she's worried about her for god's sake. There's no reason Carley and Lilly can't be friends except because of Lilly. She views Carley as the enemy, even though Carley really hasn't done anything to Lilly. The only reason I can think of is because once, way back in Macon, Carley disobeyed Lilly and saved five people's lives. People who in turn saved her father's life.

    Carley didn't have any family in the group and she didn't wind up alone and abandoned, probably because she doesn't have the stunted social skills of a four year old and can make friends with people she's not related to. So does Doug and Mark. Fucking Christa gives you a speech about how she'll leave if she doesn't like what she sees, then ends up sticking around the whole time!

    But if you need anymore proof that Lilly was out for no one but herself, just look at how she acts to Lee if he's supportive of her. You can agree with everything she says, take her side on everything and agree to come with her with when she takes the R.V., and she still ditches your ass the second you go to get Clementine. You could have proved yourself trustworthy to her a million times over, and she still doesn't trust you. If you agree to come with her she sounds shocked because she always assumes everybody is out to get here, and then leaves because she thinks you must be lying to her, even if you never have before.

    Flip that around with Kenny and you get the opposite. If you always agree with Kenny and support every stupid thing he wants, he outright refuses to let Lee go after Clementine alone. If he's the only one he tells Christa and Omid to take the boat and if they don't make it back by nightfall to leave without them. Kenny can be selfish asshole a lot of the time and does some supremely stupid shit over the course of the story, but he's not Lilly. If you treat Kenny like shit he ditches you, only the come around later when you get back. You treat Lilly badly, she tells you she was thinking of killing you when your back was turned.

    Lilly is an amoral sociopath who only sees people as tools to be used to protect herself. You can blame Larry's shitty parenting for fucking up his daughter's life, but even Larry once showed he can make friends when he charms Brenda St. John. That's one more instance of trying to get along than Lilly ever demonstrated. And Lilly's not fucking five, she's a grown woman. Larry said it himself, she can make her own friends. She chose not to, and in the end she's surprised she's alone? Fuck her.

    The ironic thing is if Lilly was just ever so slightly a better person, she'd probably would have ended up with the R.V. anyways. Telltale could have changed the scene where she escapes to have Lee talk her down if they were on good terms. Once the train was working Kenny ditched the R.V. and most definitely wouldn't want Lilly on the train with them. So the natural solution would be to leave Lilly and the R.V. behind. But that's not what happened, because Telltale decided that's not the kind of person Lilly is. She's not the kind of person who ever considers other people's lives before her own.

    Sorry for these long rants. It's just I've played the game from the start to finish like ten times and if I've noticed one constant, it's Lilly doesn't care about anyone but her and her father. From Episode one to episode three. It's always about her and her father. She always insists otherwise, but her actions speak louder. I think part of the reason she liked her father is he made her look better by comparison. He can act like an asshole and do unpopular shit and then she can back peddle and pretend like she disagrees when he's not around so she doesn't look like the bad guy. But it's just an act. Once Larry's gone she ends up doing even worse than what he did.

    No amount of hugging is going to change that about Lilly, she's always going to be that way. How Kenny, Ben and even to an extent Christa treats Lee can change if you change. Not Lilly for the most part. Best case scenario your a useful tool, worst case scenario you're the evil serial murderer who killed her dad. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a whole of difference between the two in Lilly's eyes. :(
  • edited February 2013
    well said ^ Jaded X Gamer
  • edited February 2013
    True that Jaded. I've played the game enough to see that pattern. Ungrateful biatch xD
  • edited February 2013
    I have to admit, after a couple of playthroughs, Lilly struck me as being her father's daughter...in more ways than one.
  • edited February 2013
    I have to admit, after a couple of playthroughs, Lilly struck me as being her father's daughter...in more ways than one.

    yeah, i don't think she was a completely horrible person, but she would have needed a lot of help and guidance to actually be a team player and show the potential she had as a badass group member that actually has a heart and some compassion
  • edited February 2013
    The high road? Abandoning six people to die? Most of which who put their lives on the line to keep her ass alive. Two of which were children. (She didn't know Duck was bitten.) That's bullshit. The high road would have been leaving the R.V. She wants to run away? I understand. On my first play through when she got loose and said she's leaving, I told her to go. I didn't want her in the group, she didn't want to be in the group anymore. Fine. It's broad day light, there's no walkers in the immediate area, she'd have a chance.

    But then she has to go and take the R.V. too, put everyone else's lives in danger because she's a fucking coward. Hey, have you ever counted how many walkers Lilly kills onscreen? Here, I'll give you guess. It rounds up to ZERO. That's because she never puts herself at risk. It's why she didn't want to leave the drug store, why she didn't want to leave the Motor Inn despite having no way to deal with methed up rapists attacking us, it's why Ben is on watch instead of her in episode three since there's people shooting back now. And it's why she takes the R.V. She's a fucking scared little girl, just like Carley said. Just wanted to snuggle up with her daddy in her hidey hole while everyone else died to keep safe.

    You really think she gave a shit about the woman in the streets in episode three? The first time you meet her she was yelling at Carley and Glenn for not letting FIVE people get eaten in the same street outside the same pharmacy. She was just picking a fight with Kenny. Had Kenny shot that girl she probably talk about she's not surprised Kenny jumped at the opportunity to shoot someone in the head. It's probably the same reason she objects to taking from the station wagon, to spite Kenny. She still does take from it though, even if Lee and Clementine refuse.

    Lilly felt abandoned and lonely? Yeah, I agree, but it's her fault. Fucking months went by and she never even tried to make friends with anyone. She doesn't trust anybody because she refuses to. No matter what anyone says or does, she simply refuses to trust anyone under any circumstances (great trait for a leader to have by the way). So it's no wonder she's fucking sad and alone in the end, she brought it on herself.

    Answer me this. Why does Lilly hate Carley? Why does she insist Carley's a traitor? What has Carley done to earn that? You talk to Carley before the bandit attack and she doesn't has anything against Lilly, she says she's worried about her for god's sake. There's no reason Carley and Lilly can't be friends except because of Lilly. She views Carley as the enemy, even though Carley really hasn't done anything to Lilly. The only reason I can think of is because once, way back in Macon, Carley disobeyed Lilly and saved five people's lives. People who in turn saved her father's life.

    Carley didn't have any family in the group and she didn't wind up alone and abandoned, probably because she doesn't have the stunted social skills of a four year old and can make friends with people she's not related to. So does Doug and Mark. Fucking Christa gives you a speech about how she'll leave if she doesn't like what she sees, then ends up sticking around the whole time!

    But if you need anymore proof that Lilly was out for no one but herself, just look at how she acts to Lee if he's supportive of her. You can agree with everything she says, take her side on everything and agree to come with her with when she takes the R.V., and she still ditches your ass the second you go to get Clementine. You could have proved yourself trustworthy to her a million times over, and she still doesn't trust you. If you agree to come with her she sounds shocked because she always assumes everybody is out to get here, and then leaves because she thinks you must be lying to her, even if you never have before.

    Flip that around with Kenny and you get the opposite. If you always agree with Kenny and support every stupid thing he wants, he outright refuses to let Lee go after Clementine alone. If he's the only one he tells Christa and Omid to take the boat and if they don't make it back by nightfall to leave without them. Kenny can be selfish asshole a lot of the time and does some supremely stupid shit over the course of the story, but he's not Lilly. If you treat Kenny like shit he ditches you, only the come around later when you get back. You treat Lilly badly, she tells you she was thinking of killing you when your back was turned.

    Lilly is an amoral sociopath who only sees people as tools to be used to protect herself. You can blame Larry's shitty parenting for fucking up his daughter's life, but even Larry once showed he can make friends when he charms Brenda St. John. That's one more instance of trying to get along than Lilly ever demonstrated. And Lilly's not fucking five, she's a grown woman. Larry said it himself, she can make her own friends. She chose not to, and in the end she's surprised she's alone? Fuck her.

    The ironic thing is if Lilly was just ever so slightly a better person, she'd probably would have ended up with the R.V. anyways. Telltale could have changed the scene where she escapes to have Lee talk her down if they were on good terms. Once the train was working Kenny ditched the R.V. and most definitely wouldn't want Lilly on the train with them. So the natural solution would be to leave Lilly and the R.V. behind. But that's not what happened, because Telltale decided that's not the kind of person Lilly is. She's not the kind of person who ever considers other people's lives before her own.

    Sorry for these long rants. It's just I've played the game from the start to finish like ten times and if I've noticed one constant, it's Lilly doesn't care about anyone but her and her father. From Episode one to episode three. It's always about her and her father. She always insists otherwise, but her actions speak louder. I think part of the reason she liked her father is he made her look better by comparison. He can act like an asshole and do unpopular shit and then she can back peddle and pretend like she disagrees when he's not around so she doesn't look like the bad guy. But it's just an act. Once Larry's gone she ends up doing even worse than what he did.

    No amount of hugging is going to change that about Lilly, she's always going to be that way. How Kenny, Ben and even to an extent Christa treats Lee can change if you change. Not Lilly for the most part. Best case scenario your a useful tool, worst case scenario you're the evil serial murderer who killed her dad. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a whole of difference between the two in Lilly's eyes. :(
    You make a compelling argument. I've got nothing to say about it. :D

    One thing I am unclear about is why didn't Lee tell Lilly that it was in fact Carley, who asked him to check out on the stolen supplies issue?

    I always wonder if that'd at least convince Lilly of Carley's innocence!
  • edited February 2013
    AnekiGX wrote: »
    You make a compelling argument. I've got nothing to say about it. :D

    One thing I am unclear about is why didn't Lee tell Lilly that it was in fact Carley, who asked him to check out on the stolen supplies issue?

    I always wonder if that'd at least convince Lilly of Carley's innocence!

    Oversight on the writer's part probably. It could have easily replaced the "Carley's trustworthy" option. All though I'm convinced it would have made no difference to Lilly. She would have just said "That proves nothing!" and then probably accuse Lee of being in on it with Carley.
  • edited February 2013
    Oversight on the writer's part probably. It could have easily replaced the "Carley's trust worthy" option. All though I'm convinced it would have made no difference to Lilly. She would have just said "That proves nothing!" and then probably accuse Lee of being in on it with Carley.

    Yeah, she'd probably have made the point that it was just to lead suspicion off her or something. Something stupid. I also thought about that though. I wish you could have at least stopped Carley from yelling at Lilly, as much as it was deserved, she didn't have to die for it.
  • edited February 2013
    Mark$man wrote: »
    Yeah, she'd probably have made the point that it was just to lead suspicion off her or something. Something stupid. I also thought about that though. I wish you could have at least stopped Carley from yelling at Lilly, as much as it was deserved, she didn't have to die for it.

    I really don't think there's anything reasonable anyone could have done to stop Lilly from killing Carley (other than letting Carley die in Macon, obviously). There was no reasoning with her. Lilly had it out for Carley and she wasn't going to be convinced otherwise. Carley smarting off to her probably didn't actually have jack shit to do with it, Lilly was going to shoot her no matter what anyone said.

    When you bring Doug along and Lilly accuses Ben, Ben does nothing but cower before Lilly and she still tries to shoot him. Really don't think Carley being less defensive would have swayed Lilly. When Carley is in the group, Lilly never accuses Ben, she accuses both Ben and Carley. But Carley is always guilty in Lilly's eyes. Lilly even tells Ben everything will be fine for him if he just tells her that Carley did it. She just wanted the go ahead to get rid of Carley.

    I have a feeling even if Ben confessed, Lilly still would have shot Carley is she was there. Ben could say "I did it!" and Lilly would be like "I knew it! You and Carley did it!" And Ben would deny Carley had anything to do with it and Lilly would just insist he was covering up for her and demand to know what she was giving him to sell out the group and so on and so crazy.

    I think the reason Lilly hated Carley was just because she was jealous that people actually seemed to like Carley. To Lilly, Carley was the popular girl everyone wanted to hang around and it pissed her off. You notice how she asserts Ben hanging around Carley must be because he was in on it. Same thing happens if Lee says Carley is trustworthy. Lilly just couldn't stand that she does all the work (and by work I mean sitting on her ass complaining a lot) and Carley gets all the attention from the boys. :p
  • edited February 2013
    lol maybe. She shot Ben because it is obvious he was guilty. Even with Carley it is obvious. She just hated Carley and wanted to get rid of two birds with one stone. It really pissed me off when she killed Carley though. I was so mad.
  • edited February 2013
    So... what does this have to do with people hating Kenny? lol
  • edited February 2013
    Mark$man wrote: »
    So... what does this have to do with people hating Kenny? lol

    Nothing. Just anytime anyone brings up Lilly I start ranting. :p

    On topic, I think Kenny is annoying because of how personally he takes ever fucking slight. I "sided" with Lilly in the meat locker on my first playthrough and he suddenly acts like I wanted Kat and Duck to die. You bring up the fact that you save Katjaa and Duck from the St. Johns and he comes back with "I saved them by stopping Larry from coming back!" I didn't even think he was entirely wrong for wanting to stop Larry from coming back, I just wanted to be sure he was dead before we did it, stop taking it so fucking personally.

    And then at the end of episode four he brings up how there were plenty of times you weren't there for him and I'm just thinking "When?" I didn't help you kill Larry, so what? I immediately risked my life to save your kid and wife, I was saving people left and right during the bandit attack, I saved your ass in Savannah when you got grabbed. He equates me not killing people he thought should be killed (Larry, Ben, Woman in Streets[In that case I killed her the wrong way]) as not being there for him. If I wanted him to kill someone I could understand him saying no but I never hesitated to stick my neck out for him.

    To me it's always worth bringing Ben along just to finally snap some sense back into Kenny in episode five. :p
  • edited February 2013
    Advanced wrote: »
    1. If Clem or Shawn is in trouble, wouldn't you make sure Clem is safe before Shawn is? Especially if there's another person around to help the other.

    Yes, but either of those kids were perfectly able to run away if told to do so. Kenny even carried the guilt of abandoning Lee and Shawn for the rest of the game.
    Advanced wrote: »
    2. If Larry would be screaming that Clem is bitten and want's to throw her out, wouldn't you get defensive and wanna punch him in the face?

    Not knowing how vile Larry was yet I tried to reason with him, and if it was Clem he wanted to toss my first reaction would still be that. But because I didn't throw more fuel on the fire, Kenny turned on me for being "disloyal." Kenny was as much of a problem at that point as the Cauls.
    Advanced wrote: »
    3. If you looted the entire area around you and ran out of resources wouldn't you want to move on if you had your own RV? Nothing left.

    I didn't know if it was a good idea, but I didn't know if staying was so hot either. Either way I don't get upset over matters of strategy.
    Advanced wrote: »
    4. (The most debatable one, but I will always side with Kenny here) Killing Larry. I am stunned by how many people decided to try and save him. Are you guys serious?

    Hell yes I'm serious, and I don't regret that choice. Realistically he probably didn't have a chance since he had no meds and he would have needed a trip to intensive care to survive. But I knew it was fiction and CPR and defibrillators can bring anyone back if applied soon enough.

    I didn't kill Ben either, even though by that point I hated him more than Larry. Why? It's like Lee says in the dialog option if you vote to keep Ben in Crawford. He directly compared the act of abandoning Ben to what the people of Crawford routinely did. And as bad as Larry was, he wasn't as incompetent as Ben or as much of a crazed loose cannon as his daughter. Yes I abandoned Lilly, but she had just shot someone in cold blood because she lost an argument.

    Larry though? He tried to abandon Lee, sure, and he was an old racist asshole. But he deserved a chance. And when I helped Lilly, she was the one to back Lee up instead of your "buddy" Kenny.

    Advanced wrote: »
    5. If Clem was bitten... wouldn't YOU want to hold out on killing her? Wouldn't you want to grasp on to hope and have every last second with her?

    Yes, and I talked Kenny down as gently as possible from his completely understandable reaction. We didn't fight.

    Advanced wrote: »
    6. Finally, if you found out that Ben took away everything you had in your life... Let's say Ben got Clem killed, caused numerous other deaths and was lying to you this entire time, wouldn't YOU want him dead in the spur of the moment? At the end of the day you all have emotions.

    I certainly did want Ben dead, and had forgotten just how much until I listened to my audio recording of Ep. 4. But at the end of MY day I found (to my satisfaction) that I have too much of a conscience to allow someone to die just because they're stupid.

    Until his epiphany in episode five Kenny was selfish, self-centered, reckless, pushy, judgmental, cowardly, disloyal, pig-headed, arrogant and stupid. And as he said, Katjaa rightly chewed him out for it every night in bed.

    While there were no perfect choices for who to take care of Clem, the biggest sin I saw in Omid and Christa was her naive optimism.
  • edited February 2013
    RobtMyers wrote: »

    Hell yes I'm serious, and I don't regret that choice. Realistically he probably didn't have a chance since he had no meds and he would have needed a trip to intensive care to survive. But I knew it was fiction and CPR and defibrillators can bring anyone back if applied soon enough.

    I didn't kill Ben either, even though by that point I hated him more than Larry. Why? It's like Lee says in the dialog option if you vote to keep Ben in Crawford. He directly compared the act of abandoning Ben to what the people of Crawford routinely did. And as bad as Larry was, he wasn't as incompetent as Ben or as much of a crazed loose cannon as his daughter. Yes I abandoned Lilly, but she had just shot someone in cold blood because she lost an argument.

    Larry though? He tried to abandon Lee, sure, and he was an old racist asshole. But he deserved a chance. And when I helped Lilly, she was the one to back Lee up instead of your "buddy" Kenny.



    i think you are missing the point, killing larry had nothing to do with the fact the he was an asshole (that was just a bonus), it was the fact that if you don't kill him he would kill you as a zombie, when i replayed that episode and chose not to kill larry i expected a zombie fighting sequence so i was totally shocked that kenny killed him anyway, but he made the right choice
  • edited February 2013
    RobtMyers wrote: »
    Larry though? He tried to abandon Lee, sure, and he was an old racist asshole.

    Just of curiosity, has there been any actual dialogue besides the Lee-Mark chat that prove Larry could be a racist? My gut tells me he isn't, because Larry made it very clear at the end of episode one he would protect Clementine if Lee tried to hurt her.

    That said, Larry is still an asshole. ;)
  • edited February 2013
    double_u wrote: »
    Just of curiosity, has there been any actual dialogue besides the Lee-Mark chat that prove Larry could be a racist? My gut tells me he isn't, because Larry made it very clear at the end of episode one he would protect Clementine if Lee tried to hurt her.

    That said, Larry is still an asshole. ;)

    It's still fun to call him one and then own up to it later at motel. it's like "Whatcha gonna do old man? You want keep secrets from everyone? Then I gotta think of some explanation why you hate me most. I figure this worked best!" :D
  • edited February 2013
    i think you are missing the point, killing larry had nothing to do with the fact the he was an asshole (that was just a bonus), it was the fact that if you don't kill him he would kill you as a zombie, when i replayed that episode and chose not to kill larry i expected a zombie fighting sequence so i was totally shocked that kenny killed him anyway, but he made the right choice

    No, I'm not missing the point. The original question was about how much of an asshole Larry was, not about the likelihood of him dying. We'd seen him collapse before and just lay there for a while. I genuinely believe Kenny saw a chance for thinly veiled revenge, took it, and got up in my face when I didn't back his asinine justification.

    And while Larry never used the n-word or anything, the fact that Lee was even considering it as a response was enough evidence to me that he gave it some credence.
  • edited February 2013
    It's possible that Larry's a tad racist, given his age. I don't think he is, though he's still a huge asshole. I didn't kill him because of that though, I killed him because I didn't wanna get chomped. The fact that it was Larry probably DID make that choice slightly easier though.
  • edited February 2013
    RobtMyers wrote: »
    No, I'm not missing the point. The original question was about how much of an asshole Larry was, not about the likelihood of him dying. We'd seen him collapse before and just lay there for a while. I genuinely believe Kenny saw a chance for thinly veiled revenge, took it, and got up in my face when I didn't back his asinine justification.

    Not like that we didn't. When he had a heart attack in Macon he retained consciousness and was able to speak and move to a limited extent. In the meat locker he's completely out and stops breathing. Lilly herself said sometimes his heart attacks were so bad that he had to be taken to a hospital, so odds are even if Larry could be revived he was probably still fucked.

    Larry being a huge asshole probably made it easier for Kenny to do what he did but really I just think he was scared. He acts tough but you can tell that the walkers still freak Kenny out. If it's his family or someone he considers family in danger he can usually handle it, but for anyone else he usually loses his shit.
    Rock114 wrote: »
    It's possible that Larry's a tad racist, given his age. I don't think he is, though he's still a huge asshole. I didn't kill him because of that though, I killed him because I didn't wanna get chomped. The fact that it was Larry probably DID make that choice slightly easier though.

    I don't think Larry was actually racist, it seems to hate everyone pretty much equally. :p
  • edited February 2013
    double_u wrote: »
    Just of curiosity, has there been any actual dialogue besides the Lee-Mark chat that prove Larry could be a racist? My gut tells me he isn't, because Larry made it very clear at the end of episode one he would protect Clementine if Lee tried to hurt her.

    That said, Larry is still an asshole. ;)

    I think it was more to do with the "boy" comments to/about Lee. It's meant to be disrespectful to any grown man, I suppose, but I know it was especially rampant awhile back. White men called black men (even those who were much older than them) 'boy' to demonstrate that blacks were below them. At least that's my understanding, though I'm too young to have grown up with too much of that. I think that's probably where a lot of the racist speculation comes from.
    Do I think he's racist? Not exactly. I think he was hateful, and an asshole. I think that because Lee was a strong man, he couldn't really call him a pussy or something, so he had to resort to semi-racist comments. I hope that makes sense lol. Basically, I think he would've taken any shot he could with anyone he didn't like, regardless of race and whatnot.
  • edited February 2013
    Well if we're going to single out characters for being racist, we mustn't forget Andy St. John calling Lee "boy" when he catches him snooping around in that back room, as well as Kenny with his infamous "urban" remark.
  • edited February 2013
    Desmodus87 wrote: »
    I think it was more to do with the "boy" comments to/about Lee. It's meant to be disrespectful to any grown man, I suppose, but I know it was especially rampant awhile back. White men called black men (even those who were much older than them) 'boy' to demonstrate that blacks were below them. At least that's my understanding, though I'm too young to have grown up with too much of that. I think that's probably where a lot of the racist speculation comes from.
    Do I think he's racist? Not exactly. I think he was hateful, and an asshole. I think that because Lee was a strong man, he couldn't really call him a pussy or something, so he had to resort to semi-racist comments. I hope that makes sense lol. Basically, I think he would've taken any shot he could with anyone he didn't like, regardless of race and whatnot.

    Good point, Desmodus. I was recently chatting with a friend, and she mentioned that her grandfather said that a white man calling a black man a "boy" meant exactly what you described, especially back in those days.
  • edited February 2013
    I hate Kenny because he forgets everything you do for him unless you do everything

    I wasn't going to let Larry die, and afterwards he just got on my nerve and I lost my temper
    I wasn't going to care about him anymore
  • edited February 2013
    I agree... Although not everyone hates Kenny there is a fair few haters out there.... The only thing I found kinda annoying is that of you didn't side with Kenny for one thing you were instantly the arsehole out of everyone which didn't seem very fair. Kenny is a great guy and I really like him as a character but he can sometimes annoy me with his ethic of if you disagree with me once I will hate on you for ages and then claim you never liked me for an episode and if you do it again then ill say you never had my back and won't help you save Clem... I find this sick! Quite honestly if it were duck who was missing I would help him find him!!

    But I love Kenny and he was always one of my favourite characters :)
  • edited March 2013
    Okay, I don't know why people don't see this. Kenny is a FAMILY MAN. If you don't help him kill Larry he sees it as not caring about his family. Obviously if they gave us different dialogue choices to make him understand why we were giving him CPR, but they don't and he sees it as you don't want to do what needs to be done to help his family. I think it's stupid you basically have to be his bitch to get the bro speech but that's just the guy he is. If you do anything that can be counted as going against or not protecting his family, he'll hold a grudge.
  • edited March 2013
    Kenny may have been a family man but he took it too far. Kenny himself says Katjaa chewed him out every single night because he didn't care about others instead of just his family. It's a shame he couldn't realize this until his last moments...
  • edited March 2013
    Mornai wrote: »
    Kenny may have been a family man but he took it too far. Kenny himself says Katjaa chewed him out every single night because he didn't care about others instead of just his family. It's a shame he couldn't realize this until his last moments...
    Yeah, Kenny isn't an inherently bad guy, but for me, he defined fair-weather friend.

    I saved and defended Duck, I fed his family, I tried to mediate peacefully between him and Lilly, but the moment I said that we should give Larry a chance he doesn't hesitate to kill him, cause Lilly to have a mental breakdown, and leave me for dead.

    I still felt genuinely sorry for him after what happens with his family, but his hypocrisy during it all didn't help. I suppose he found his own redemption in the end though.
  • edited March 2013
    Random people? That's what Lee, Clem, Carley/Doug, Kenny, Kat and Duck were to her? The people who have been taking risks, fetching supplies, putting their lives on the line for months at a time and helping to keep her safe? Just a bunch of random people? Just tools for her to use? The only reason there even was an R.V. to take is because Kenny had the common sense to fix it. If he had listened to Lilly they'd have none and everyone probably would have died during the bandit attack.

    Tell me, do you think Vernon gets more hate than he deserves? Because compared to Lilly he was a god damn saint. He helps Omid, get's you into Crawford to get the things Kenny needs to fix the boat and loses one of his own people in the process. Then he steals a boat that he was partially responsible for repairing to save the people he was taking care of for months over the lives of people he's known for less than twenty-four hours.

    And the reason for that being his people knew the approaching hoard would make staying in Savannah impossible, so they did a shitty thing to save their own skins when a looming threat (the hoard) presented itself. And even then, depending on who stays with the boat, it's suggested he does at least feel guilty about. Either with his note saying he was sorry or Ben telling everyone how pissed he was the group lost Clementine, probably because he wanted to take her with him.

    Vernon didn't pull a gun and shoot someone in a paranoid fit of petty rage (all though Brie wanted him to do that), complain about how him murdering someone in cold blood is causing other people to treat him like shit, then steal a vehicle he spent months bitching about as a waste of time to save just himself and no one else. He didn't sit on his ass when the group needed supplies either, he went right into the fire and brought another one of his people with him.

    Fuck, Ben has more courage than Lilly. Ben, like Lilly, is blamed for people's deaths, ironically including whoever Lilly murdered. Ben, unlike Lilly, isn't a goddamn sociopath. Ben feels horrid guilt over the things he's done, unlike Lilly who complains about being detained for committing murder. Ben owns up to what he does (at the WORST possible time though) and accepts the consequences, going as far as to ask Lee to let him die for what he's done.

    You think Lilly gets more hate than she deserves? That's fine, that's your opinion. In my opinion she was a worthless irredeemable cunt who liked bossing people around because it meant she could keep her bony chickenshit ass parked somewhere safe while other people died for her safety. Different strokes for different folks.

    But you're fucking crazy if you think she would have gone with Lee to get Clementine. She thinks Ben dealing with the bandits is the same as cutting your throat while you sleep? How would you think Lilly would react when she found out Clementine had been secretly dealing with a stranger over the radio? Fuck, I felt kinda betrayed when I found that out and I loved Clementine.

    You really think queen bitch, who up and left Clem and Lee after lying about taking them along, is going to risk her life to get Clementine back? The same girl she yelled at Carley for saving back in Macon? After Clementine went behind the group's back to chase a pipe dream a weirdo over a radio was offering her? When there's a fully working escape vehicle sitting right there? I take it back, Lilly wouldn't have gone with Vernon's group if she was in that situation, she would have stolen the boat before Vernon's people ever even got there.

    My biggest regret on my first play through was letting her back in the R.V. I figured she deserved a second chance because Lee got a second chance after killing someone in an emotional state and he went on to do a lot of good for a lot of people. Lilly's given a second chance and she immediately back stabs everyone the very first moment she gets, after shooting one of them in the back of the head a little earlier. All because she was afraid of what? Exile? Isn't that exactly what Lee prevented if you choose to not leave her on the side of the road?

    Fuck the bitch. Now that she's an "original character" I hope she pops up in season two and we're given the opportunity to finish what we started in season one and finally putting her out of everyone's misery.
    Wow you really hate Lilly. I was wondering if we were playing the same game. When I recall episode 2 Lilly made herself useful by keeping watch. Of all of the characters we saw she looked the most tired which suggests that she sacrificed sleep more, spent more time keeping watch whilst the others rested, looking out for the group’s overall survival.

    Kenny spent most of his time fixing the R.V, that was his priority, so he could leave with his family and anyone he felt earned the right to come with them. By contrast Lilly didn't want to move so she made fortifying the motor inn a priority.

    Lilly may have seemed like she was bossing everyone around but that was tough love. Her choices and way of doing things wasn't popular but her decision to ration food kept the group alive.

    There is a lot that went on off screen. You have to take note of what the NPC's have to say about the characters they lived with. To suggest Lilly didn't care for the group and that they were random people to her is an opinion but Clementine presents facts when she reminisces in conversation with Lee, how Lilly looked out for her, giving her hair bands to tie her hair back before she went to bed etc, which gives the image of a caring woman. By contrast in conversation with Lee in ep5 Kenny admits that Kat used to have arguments with him at night in bed and give him hell about how he didn't care enough for the wider group as he always focused on his family.

    You talk about Lilly sitting around, being lazy and ordering everyone around. I recall Kenny getting Lee to do the dirty work. He had Lee sneak into the ST Johns secret room whilst he was sitting down for dinner, He had Lee sneak from the barn stall to confront Danny whilst he hid, He sat down comfortably at the train controls whilst Lee worked out how to fix the train, then took over as the train commander once Lee did the manual work with the train spike, he had Lee sneak and confront Molly whilst he hid, He drinks himself into oblivion whilst Clem finds the boat then he calls the boat his and dictates who will be able to ride on it like he did with the RV. Speaking of the RV the RV was available to the group because of what Lee and Carly did, when they killed the walkers in the motor inn, Kenny fixed it because he had those skills but even without the RV they still had his truck as a source of transport. He fixed the RV as a mobile home until he could get to the coast because he didn't want to stay at the motor inn. It was a luxury not a necessity.

    Don't get me wrong Lilly wasn't perfect, she snapped but part of why she snapped was from the pressure of being the de-factor leader. Rick Grimes also snapped at the prison and that was before he lost his wife. He wasn't sleeping well because he was constantly worrying about the group, he got into a full blown fight with Tyreese and that was when Dale told him he shouldn't be leader anymore because of the pressure the role was having on him and the committee was formed.

    Kenny did a lot for his family but Lilly did a lot for the group and even had her hero moments. In my play through she saved Lee twice in quick successions. She shanked Danny and shot Andy. I'm aware those scenarios are determinant but the sequence when she saves the whole group from the bandit raid is not. That sequence plays out that way regardless of your relationship with her. When Lee was shitting himself she kept a clear head and planned the counter attack against the bandits, instructing Lee to distract them so she could get a vantage point. She took out the leader/guy calling the shots, allowing the hostages to run and hide whilst Lee took out the rest.

    Regarding Lilly stealing the RV can you really blame her? By this point she felt paranoid, isolated, alone and cast out. She had been tied up and believed the group were planning to kill her or abandon her in a safer place. Even if Lee agreed to come with her she wouldn't of really trusted him to choose her over the group, she wasn't stupid. She stole the RV for survival. At that point it was her or them. Do you really think the group would have accepted her back in the fold like nothing happened? They no longer trusted her although they wouldn't of killed her they wouldn't have wanted to take her to Savannah which was where Kenny was going before the RV was blocked by the train.

    The only thing I held against Lilly was her shooting Carly but even that was the result of her projecting her anger about Ben onto her when Carly touched on the delicate subject of her father's death and her perception of her being "daddy's little princess". Again I draw comparison to when Tyreese fought with Rick. In that scenario can we really be sure that Rick wouldn't have shot Tyreese if he had a gun on him or strangled him to death with his bare hands for that matter, in his rage? Both Rick and Lilly were beyond breaking point during their arguments.

    The fact is most of the hate Lilly got was because she was perceived as an antagonist from the beginning and hated because of what people felt she would go on to do to Lori. Telltale wrote her as an antagonist because they themselves saw the comic character Lilly as a villain. now that Lilly is no longer intended to be the character from the comics Telltale could enable her to redeem herself in season 2 if they wanted to bring her back. If they did bring her back she would probably be portrayed differently because she would no longer fit their perception of Lilly from the comics.

    I think a big problem was how Telltale perceived Lilly in the first place which was probably why Kirkman felt the need to set people straight on how Lilly was envisaged when he created her. In their interview on playing dead they spoke of Lilly doing something that was nuts, referring to when she shot Lori which suggests that they saw her as an evil person or someone who was at least crazy. What they completely missed was the fact that Lilly was a normal woman who was tricked by the Governor into opening fire on Rick's people and she wasn't one of the Governor's elite troops that was aware of his twisted plans.

    So yeah, I think Lilly was misunderstood from even before the game was released and the hate she's generated has had a snow ball effect.
  • edited March 2013
    Doesn't matter. Even if they are separate people, the Lilly Caul of the game is still terrible, and I disagree with your statements about Kenny. I know Jaded will write something better than me though, so I'll let his fire the gun and I'll cover him from behind xD But I really hate that woman, game or comics lol
  • edited March 2013
    I played the game before i ever even heard of the franchise, but i still disliked Lilly the moment i met her. The first thing she does is try to get the player and their group thrown out into the streets to die. I don't think the comic played such a huge role in the hatred for her.
  • edited March 2013
    Mornai wrote: »
    I played the game before i ever even heard of the franchise, but i still disliked Lilly the moment i met her. The first thing she does is try to get the player and their group thrown out into the streets to die. I don't think the comic played such a huge role in the hatred for her.

    That, and she hated Carley and Glenn because they saved you. That and her prick ass father tries to kill Duck, and possibly puches Kenny. He also leaves you to die, and Lilly has no problem with it, even though you SAVED her dad.
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