How much do you think sexism influenced the decision to give money in the start?

2

Comments

  • Here's what I can say. I saw a prostitute who was tricked into visiting a drunk client only to get beaten around for some incoherent reason she couldn't understand, and she had to get something out of it because the pimp wasn't going to take an excuse. So I gave her money. Beyond that, this speculation on whether if it was an old man, a fat man, or just a man would influence my decision, is simply just that: speculation. Maybe it just makes it a better story.

    Maybe one day, you can make your own point-and-click adventure and do a little experiment to see what players would do. Until you do, or someone does, I can't give you an answer or take this seriously.

  • I gave her the money for the same reason I chose the "nicest" options available with everyone - to get on their good side. (Same reason why I decided to "stay out of it" with both Beauty and Beast the second time around; didn't want to compromise to either of them.) Turns out I lost my money on her and couldn't buy cigarettes, but I put the drink on Crane's tab.

    What can I say? I'm a pacifist.

  • I chose to give her money because I was playing Bigby as an old-fashioned, gentlemanly sort of guy. In that sense, her gender played a part, but no more so than Bigby's opening the door for Snow.

    However, even if those aspects had been removed, she was in trouble and seemed like she was a good person. In those circumstances I would have given the money away no matter who it was on the receiving end, since I prefer to roleplay a good guy (with an edge) where possible.

  • I know how you feel. Any time you try and argue that something, is in fact, sexist, no matter whether it had positive intent or not, people tend to go up in arms at you. In a video on YouTube, with two people playing a horror game side-by-side, someone made a comment about how the male was more a girl than the female. Somebody pointed out that this is a sexist statement, and just about everyone else turned into an ugly mob of people saying "How dare you call this sexist" or "It's not sexist to say that" etc. I arrived at the original commenter's defence, because nobody else was, and I figured someone should point out that actually, it is kind of sexist, but it's only a joke so no big deal. The original connotation is sexist, whether it was intended that way or not. It's one of the more deceptively sexist statements, and in my opinion is somehow made worse by the fact that everybody just accepts it. The tone and implications of a comment like that point to being male, or more masculine about things is somehow better than the female way, and also implies that females are more frightened or possibly weaker than men. It's a very obvious implication the moment you stop to analyse it, but it gets passed around by the most tolerant, open of people as a joke, perfectly accepted as being okay.

    Sorry to go so wildly into the story of a discussion that is not happening here, I just wanted to say, that I know how you feel. People tend to be very resistant to the idea that anything they like or enjoy is sexist, or racist, or prejudiced in any way, because it makes them feel like you are calling them bad people, even if you're not, even if you're just interested in something, or wanting to make people aware of something, or educate them, or maybe even defend them.

    I really should have used a word other than 'sexism'. I feel like a poked a sore point for people and now they feel they're being ac

  • It has nothing to do with gender.

    Compassion is gender blind. It has to do with being a good person.

  • Sure, true compassion is, and what you said is a great sentiment. However in the real world, not every perceived act of kindness happens because of genuine, pure compassion. Have you never heard of of being nice to someone to gain their favour, have you never heard of people manipulating one another?

    Men are quite often nicer to attractive women than they are to other men in the exact same situations. It may not be sexist, but it certainly has to do with their desired gender and mating rituals. But that doesn't mean that every man who is nice to a woman is automatically sexist, either, so please don't take what I'm saying that way.

    fusedmass posted: »

    It has nothing to do with gender. Compassion is gender blind. It has to do with being a good person.

  • Of course I have. It's no secret, people use kindness for other reasons. It's also up for debate, if it was a male, would you have given him the money. The factors to why I gave her the money is true compassion. She pretty much told me she was going get nailed, if she didn't come back with money, plus that guy hit her.

    Now would I have done so if it been a guy, guys typically can take care of themselves. But sure, I sided with Kenny tons of times in the walking dead. Now would I treated kenndy the same if he was female. What factors into a situaiton is

    A: Vulnerability [She was pretty much going get hit if she didn't bring back money]

    B: [Being beat up] She got hit pretty hard before I got there. Not like I ran up the stairs. So partly its my fault

    C: Likeability. [She didn't come off as rude or an attitude that would turned me away.]

    Those not all the factors, but ones I summed up in my encounter. Being a woman was not on the list.

    Toadbomb posted: »

    Sure, true compassion is, and what you said is a great sentiment. However in the real world, not every perceived act of kindness hap

  • Your first post was a blanket statement that implied (whether it was your intention or not) that there is no way that sexism played a part in anybody choosing to give her the money. But it seems now that you were talking just about yourself.

    That's all well and good, I'm happy you don't consider your decision to have been sexist, but the point of this thread is not to ask whether or not you believe your decision was sexist. It is to question how much her gender and her attractive features may have played a part in the 90% of people choosing to give her the money.

    fusedmass posted: »

    Of course I have. It's no secret, people use kindness for other reasons. It's also up for debate, if it was a male, would you have g

  • Then that answer is easy. None. In none of the things I described, did I list her attractive features. So I'm sincerely confused, how you could not gather from that my answer.

    Toadbomb posted: »

    Your first post was a blanket statement that implied (whether it was your intention or not) that there is no way that sexism played

  • edited October 2013

    Again, you're talking about your own motivations, and this thread is not about the motivations of a single person, it is about discussing whether you believe a proportion of ALL people may have done it for reasons other than just general kindness.

    You're making it all about you. I'm not accusing you of being sexist or of making the choice for sexist reasons, and I'm not asking you to tell me what your own personal motivations were, but rather to think about the bigger picture.

    fusedmass posted: »

    Then that answer is easy. None. In none of the things I described, did I list her attractive features. So I'm sincerely confused, how you could not gather from that my answer.

  • Reading from the other reply's, people speaking from their own experiences. They must be as confused as I am. Because some of the answers in this limited thread space reflect them personally. This thread is pretty must discussing everyone in general.

    That's a silly question. Because you would have to know their motivations, and factors in order to make an informed opinion. It's not like we can magically see into the minds of hundreds of millions of people across the globe. Perhaps you should try to limit your discussion.

    However it seems, this thread is too complex for my mind. So I bid you.

    Good day.

    Toadbomb posted: »

    Again, you're talking about your own motivations, and this thread is not about the motivations of a single person, it is about discu

  • edited October 2013

    Personally, I believe most people just wanted to help Faith out. If she'd been a Tweedle? I still think people would've helped her with some cash, especially you as the player didn't have to grind away to earn that cash - you just found out you had any when you offered her some.

    The strongest proponents that play into the decision of giving away your not-so-hard earned cash? I believe they'd be:

    1) You just saved her ass from being beaten up - I believe this makes you feel invested for her well-being, and I still think you'd have been there trying to stop the beat down if she'd been a dude.

    2) She has this sort of down-on-her-luck thing going for her - not only was she being beat down, but she's obviously a hooker, and she's just been short-changed. Of course, most people are going to want to help her out if they can - no one likes to see an underdog being kicked around.

    3) You kind of get the sense that your character takes care of the Fables in Town just from that little bit of intro with Toad - even if it means you threatened to send him to the Farm for his own good. I don't think a character that cares enough to attend to a little disturbance call in the middle of the night wouldn't offer some cash to a Fable in some obvious trouble.

    So, no, I don't believe that Faith's gender necessarily dictated most of people's reaction to the question of gifting her some cash - I think the prejudice is in the set up of the situation that Faith is in.

  • edited October 2013

    I accidentally double-posted again. Anyone know how to delete posts on here?

  • edited October 2013

    I gave her the money because I'd assumed it was an unimportant decision to make, and therefore wanted to do the obvious nice thing. I had no idea it'd bite me on the arse when I genuinely wanted to pay the bartender at the end of the game.

  • You could have either way payed for the drink and a lot more.

  • I'm a straight female and I gave her the money because she seemed like a good person and I felt sorry for her. It has nothing to do with "Sexism", it's just about being compassionate. If Toad or Colin had needed money I would have probably given them some too.

  • I chose to give it to her every single time I played through the episode. Gender did not play a factor.
    Factor 1: She was beaten up by Woody.
    Factor 2: She needed to pay someone $100.
    Factor 3: She saved you.
    I never regretted that decision, I charged the asshole Crane for everything that went on at the bar when I noticed that option.
    Paying only for the drink is like saying I can ruin a bar and get away with it.

  • Nowadays everything can be sexist... sad world we live in...

    I don't get how being generous could end up being deemed sexist at all...

  • I gave her the money because I felt sorry for her, and because I thought Bigby would also have felt sorry for her and wanted to help her. If it had been a male in an equal situation, I'd have felt sorry for him too.

  • I as a lady am so sick of these sexist debates. Everything ist sexist today. In Germany, where I come from, the government even changed the orthography because of alleged sexism. While in english language most nouns are gender-neutral in Germany the nouns are male and the female nouns get a female ending, like "Lehrer und Lehrerin" (teacher and female teacher). Backwards when someone was talking about "Lehrer" (teachers) everyone knew that both female and male teachers are meant. Then the feminists demanded that you have to allude the female noun no matter what, because it is sexist if you don't. From the time when this happened you always gotta say and write both, the male and female noun ("Dear teachers and female teachers, dear students and female students.." how stupid is that?!
    It is not sexist if you tell a woman she is beautiful or if you help her. It is not sexist asking a man to open a bottle, either. Even if: political correctness isn't what video games are for. That's why I totally love the swearing in TWAU and TWD

  • For me, I gave it as a sign of thanks. If she hadn't drove that axe into the back of The Woodsman's head, Bigby would have turned into the Big Bad Wolf, and hell would've broke loose, something clearly implied throughout the episode that will have bad consequences.

  • edited October 2013

    So I am to assume you have studied detective fiction. In these studies you learned that if people disagree with your detective premise then they are being either obtuse or sexist. On top of that, if we failed to understand your points it automatically means we are refusing to comprehending your points. Your final note implies that if she turns out to be the culprit that we should feel bad for some reason.
    I will tackle your final note first, if you give some one charity in the form of money any misuse of that money or monstrous acts by that person is on their head not the giver's head. So I fail to see why I would feel bad.
    On the first point, you may want to lower the time spent studying detective fiction and more time studying clear concise writing patterns. This will probable lower the misunderstandings people are having with you points.
    My blunt approach in my response was not meant as an attack or to be insulting, if it is found to be either of these I sincerely apologize.
    P.S. Sorry about the small wall of text. I had paragraphs but either I failed or the website decided it didn't want paragraphs.

    Lupine posted: »

    am I the only one to have studied detective fiction? oh well. first of all, she does not say much of anything. the way all of you

  • It was a sexist situation because it portrayed a down trodden woman trying to make her life work as best she could in a crap city with a broken system. If had been a guy he may not have played off the situation the same, and garnered as much endearment. I don't know bout' everyone else, but chances are ya grew up getting taught that hitting women is bad. That colors bias and perceptions. The decisions made by players could be driven by any number of other reasons regardless. I suspect some people thought a hooker getting beat up was cliche and silly. I can envision some younger dudes on a couch jeering at their friends, and girls making equally as disparaging comments. Others may have been shocked. Or, if someone came from a more staunchly religious background, maybe they didn't empathize... But, for the most part it seems like most people identified with her shitty life and poor situation. The first comment on compassion, that was echoed by so many people, sounds like an honest response. It's a fairly fucked up situation, why make it worse in this fictional universe?

    Sexist is thrown around a lot, but was still a valid observation. The unconscious knee jerk reaction that has potentially sexist roots are the ones that deserve thought. But for real, most people just wanted to see her not be hurt.

  • What ?

    I didn't understand sh-t of your post.

    It was a sexist situation because it portrayed a down trodden woman trying to make her life work as best she could in a crap city wi

  • I don't know how to help you there then. Bias and perception colors personal choices, the situation was fucked up and innately sexist, but that doesn't make the players sexist?

    What ? I didn't understand sh-t of your post.

  • I'll be honest, I was thinking, "so how is this bitch gonna die?" The minute she put an axe in Woody's head. I gave her money just cause I didn't think that it would come into play later.

    If the character were male and sympathetic, I think the percentages would be high. I highly doubt they would be 90% in favor, which

  • edited October 2013

    Well, thank you for the short version.

    But I still fail to see how the situation was sexist. If I refer to your larger post, "it was a sexist situation because it portrayed a down trodden woman trying to make her life work as best she could in a crap city with a broken system."

    You're aware many men too are downtrodden and trying hard in crap cities with broken systems ? Let's say, beggars, for example.
    A situation is sexist only if it applies to one sex. Poverty and necessity to do unpleasant/degrading things to survive are unfortunately the lot of many people, male and female.

    I don't know how to help you there then. Bias and perception colors personal choices, the situation was fucked up and innately sexist, but that doesn't make the players sexist?

  • edited November 2013

    I didn't give her the money. I wont call "sexism", I don't believe that the majority of players would have given Faith money had she looked like one of the Tweedles. That's just a fact. In reality I think there are just too many lonely dudes playing this game.

  • I'm not even going to pretend I didn't do it because it was a smoking hot young female asking for the money. Of course, I might have still done it, had it been anyone else, but I would have taken longer to consider. Here it was a no brainer. 'Course, this being Telltale, I never really expected she'd make it into my office for that "talk". And what a surprise, she totally didn't.

  • On first playthrough (only played up until Faith's death first time round), I tried to be tough and not let other people's problems bother me, then I realised Bigby was trying to stop fellow Fables getting killed, so thought the right thing would be to help her out. How was I to know she'd die anyway and she'd end up with all of Bigby's cash?

    I initially thought I'd not get involved in the Beasts' problem, but after seeing how worried Mr Beast was, thought it was best to help them (not to mention Bigby told Colin he'd saved Beauty from making her situation worse).

    As for Colin, sure, he's a scrounger and did a good job at depressing me/Bigby but I'm sure Bigby felt some guilt, after blowing his house down.

    For the rest of the episode, I went for the most humane options, the ones that protected people and the ones that improved people's opinion of Bigby.

    Back on topic: it's not in my nature to discriminate on grounds of gender. My gender-neutral approach has gotten me into trouble in the past too, believe it or not.

  • she just got the shit beat out of her, and then was she was going to go back to her pimp to possibly get the shit beat out of her again for something that wasn't her fault. it was compassion more than sexism, at least in my case.

  • No this isn't sexism Bigby isn't being prejudice towards Faith by giving her money.
    First of all Faith is a stock character, "A hooker with a Heart of Gold," as her character is critical to the game, with her secrets and murder moving the game forward. However, as Wolf Among Us moves on Faith's murder will reveal something more consequential and possibly this reveal will overshadow Faith. Another proof from Faith's characters motif, "...She is sometimes established in contrast to another female character who is morally perfect but frigid or otherwise unyielding. Hookers with hearts of gold are sometimes reluctant prostitutes due to either desperation or coercion from a pimp..." (Snow White being the contrasted perfect woman).

    If anything Faith's character is a stereotype, that doesn't mean the players by making Bigby give her the money are doing it because she is a hooker. It is because her character has integrity and shows kindness towards Bigby. If it was a male, Toad or Twins it shouldn't matter.

  • It's [the situation] inherently sexist because she is a prostitute being set up in the stereotype you are describing. She is a woman being used for her body and being paid for it knowing that she might be discriminated due to this. I am calling it neither good nor bad. But the way she is being treated, in game, is a result of sexist themes. Yeah gender stereotypes blah de blah. I mean doesn't help Woodsy was drunk and sayin' dumb shit.

  • … I didn't think the situation was sexist. Abusive would be a better word choice- obviously Woody beating on Faith.
    You could stretch Woody chanting "bitch," at Faith is misogynistic, but I wouldn't call it sexist themes per say, just because she was a female prostitute. What if Faith was a man? Or what if it was Lawrence who got picked up by the woodsman and Woody just chose to use the same vulgarity again calling Lawrence "bitch."
    I'm just really sick of how women can't be portrayed as freely as men sometimes in entertainment without arguments about "sexism" with people getting so pissed at gender stereotypes, it just disrupts everyones enjoyment of looking at the actual story.
    I'm not offend or up in arms over this scenario, its meant to roll like a film noir cliché, Bigby the detective, meets a girl with a *dangerous secret *that introduces him to a chain of events, which forms a mysterious crime that he must solve. I don't think this cliché is bad or reflects bad on women.
    Wolf Among Us next episode will give an uncomfortable scope on prostitution, most likely working girl dominated, but I think telltale would be gutsy enough to have subtext of male prostitutes.

    This discussion: **And yet, what is it, 90% still who chose to give Faith money? Would the percentage be anywhere near as high if he had been a fat old man rather than a smoking hot young woman?
    **
    If anything Faith's character is a stock stereotype, "whore with a heart of gold." That doesn't mean the players by making Bigby give her the money are doing it because she is a hooker. It is because her character has integrity and shows kindness towards Bigby. If it was a male, Toad or Twins it shouldn't matter.

    It's [the situation] inherently sexist because she is a prostitute being set up in the stereotype you are describing. She is a woman

  • she was so hot she made me sexist

  • I find it interesting to see, at least, the association made by some people on this thread with the word sexism: personal sexuality, political correctness, being nice/mean, etc. I don't think this was an accusation from Mr. Masamune and that he's out to fight political correctness, he's just curious about how gender-blind we are and how gender can influence our choices, it's just a "neutral" sociological question there, as some people have understood! :)
    There is the problem however of a double vision: we have to think about how Bigby is thinking, we play through him and we try to see his conceptions of the world. Bigby from the comics could be considered as sexist, in a sense where he tends to be really protective towards women whereas he can be violent with human male Fables. So there's that.
    Personally I gave her money because I thought she could be hurt by her pimp. I don't know if male prostitutes have pimps too but I don't think there would be the same type of relationship between female prostitute/pimp; male prostitute/pimp. I think gender was important for me in that optic.

  • nope gave it to her just cuz i felt bad for her BUT I was mean cuz I didn't give her the match book and just lit her cig with a lighter....Honestly smokers know that sucks to have smokes but no light of any kind XD

  • TTG should do a test about that, by making a similar decision later in TWAU but with "a fat old man".. but Faith was hurt, and needed the money.. I was just trying to be kind ;_;

  • edited November 2013

    Let's get some science in here! This social psychology study looked at differences in charitable contributions when the person soliciting the money is a female compared to when the solicitor is a male. The paper found that both men and women were more likely to give money to female solicitors but this difference only occurs when the request for charity was impersonal, rather than personal.

    Although the situation isn't exactly the same as with Faith (since Faith didn't actually request any charity), I'd say that given the greater amount of interaction between her and the player, her scenario is more similar to the personal condition than the impersonal condition. So, based on this, I would lean towards Faith's sex not being a factor in players giving money to her in this case.

    EDIT: inb4

  • edited November 2013

    I gave Faith money because I liked her. I also called her a "working girl." Unless someone is trying to write a thesis (see NERD post above), then it shouldn't matter.

    DomeWing333 posted: »

    Let's get some science in here! This social psychology study looked at differences in charitable contributions when the person solic

Sign in to comment in this discussion.