"Leaving her alone on the road is same as murder."

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  • You also have to think who has the most potential arc available.

    Kenny's arc was pretty much complete by the end of Season 1.
    Lilly has a potential arc of redemption if Telltale want to go down that route.

    That's why I'm edging to Lily on this one.

  • edited December 2013

    I agree. The blank expression she had when stealing the RV says to me "I've made my decision. You're not keeping me here." That was the look of pure survival, not shock. But that doesn't necessarily mean that her reaction to killing Carley/Doug was all just an act. She could have been (and, in my opinion, seemed to be) genuinely in shock after what she did. But then over the course of the RV ride she could have switched back to survival mode and decided that since she'd already burned all her bridges with Lee's group by that point, she might as well do whatever she needs to do to give herself the best chance of survival. Stealing the RV was a cold, calculated thing to do and she knows it.

    That being said, the last thing she says to Lee before taking the RV is "Sorry Lee. I really am." She had absolutely no reason to say that if she didn't mean it. It doesn't at all make what she's doing or what she did any better, but it does show that there is at the very least a small spark of remorse there. As of now, Lilly's on the same shit-list as Vernon in my book. They've committed severe acts of betrayal and it's going to take a whole lot of misery and character growth for me to be able to forgive them (and I mean a FUCKTON). But it's possible. And that kind of redemption is something that I think Telltale can pull off if they choose to go in that direction.

  • Yes. Shock can lead to blank expression. It's kind of the point. I said she was probably nervous for when he turned. Kenny became increasingly angry so it'd make sense for Lilly to be nervous he'd take it out on her

  • I wouldn't be against giving the guy with the condition extra food. Working in Air Force bases kind of means you learn certain things, even if you aren't constantly near weapons. You're saying she was terrible on watch for missing one thing yet being ready to shoot whatever was in the trees earlier in the day? You know, the noise no others even heard?

  • Assume all you want. I'd rather keep an open mind and wait for Telltale's idea if she comes back. It isn't your choice whether the character felt regret or can be redeemed. It isn't letting her off the hook. It's giving her a chance for redemption. You seem to be seeing things in black and white. I said I'd be tempted to kill Michelle for what she did but I'd rather her need to live with it. It's worse punishment

  • I WANT LEE BACK!
    I WANT LEE BACK!
    LEE THE MONSTER!
    TELL ME THAT IN THE LAST EPISODE CLEM WILL FOUND THE WAY TO NURSE ALL AND SHE WILL FOUND LEE...
    PLEASE TELL ME THAT LEE WILL BE BACK! PLEASE!

  • edited December 2013

    I wouldn't be against giving the guy with the condition extra food.

    Well, it was a heart condition. I doubt sneaking the guy with the bad heart extra cheese crackers and beef jerky is really the way to go there. (And yeah, I know there's an apple but fuck that, that's Clementine's).

    I do agree that Lilly was fairly useful while she was on watch and for her military experience. She was piss-poor at the actual "managing people" aspect of being a leader but I think she did a good job preparing them for when the shit hits the fan. I think we can spare her some credit there.

  • True but it means he'd need the extra food too right? Even if it isn't the best food for him I suppose ;/ I feel mean now, I give Clem and Duck the crackers and cheese or beef jerky because it seems more wholesome for them. I never considered the apple being better. I suppose the group could be better without one leader. Say Lee in charge of any kind of social management, Lilly survival, etc. Groups with only one leader seem to mess up kind of

  • Lee will be back. He's not dead, he's in the game files. He comes back as an angel.

  • The thing is, I'm not assuming, I'm just theorizing what happened on screen, you assume she felt bad for the things she's done when she actually showed no sign of guilt. Giving Clem an option to forgive her will make Clem look weak minded as if she learned nothing at all especially what she went through with the Stranger & Lilly
    "So you killed my friend and left me, my guardian and my friends for dead but since you're sorry, lets be buddies :)"
    We may make the decisions on how our protagonist should behave but there are options that should never be, could we make Lee stop caring for Clementine? No because that not in his character just like it shouldn't be in Clems character to forgive the person that committed a monstrous act on her friends and also it wouldn't be in Lilly's character to ask for forgiveness when she showed her true colors as a selfish coward with no morals. I doubt letting Michelle off the hook would be a worse punishment, people like her would get over it fast.

  • edited December 2013

    It isn't exactly fair to the others, she set up a system, expects others to agree with it yet she doesn't follow them especially when there are others that need it. He has a bad heart, I don't think little portions of snacks will prevent that dickhead having a heart attack every time he goes off. And that one thing was close to her, inside her own camp and her fellow group members were in danger yet she's nowhere to be seen, you would think that she would attempt to shoot that zombie when her dad goes over to kill it with an axe, putting himself at risk, you're saying she was a good watch because she was alert at what's coming out of the trees?

  • She didn't seem to be affected at what she has done and she tried justifying it afterwards. And as I said, if she was so scared then leave on foot without taking the one transport vehicle that she considered a waste of time as the group that consisted of two kids who needed it more than her, if she ever cared and felt remorseful as you claim she did then that's the least she can do after the pain and fear she caused them and broke them by taking away the life of a likeable valuable group member that would've contributed to their survival. I doubt Kenny at that time would give a damn and wouldn't bother chasing after her. But instead, she robs them showing no sign of regret and leaves them stranded and giving the vibe "Fuck Them". And one thing, did she even know that Duck was bit?

  • True she messed up there. There isn't any excuse other than not knowing people turn yet

  • I don't know. People do things they regret so even if they care aboutthe people involved, sometimes they can't bring themselves to face them. Good point though. The reason I'm assuming she knew about Duck is because of how quiet the RV was toward the train so she probably heard something

  • edited December 2013

    The whole Lilly sneaking Larry food thing is all still speculation from Mark. And he didn't even say that he thought that was what's going on, only that he wouldn't be surprised if it were.

    There wasn't too much Lilly could have done with the zombie that attacked Lee. It was right on top of him for a lot of that. Trying to shoot at something with a rifle when it's in a frantic struggle with a person you don't want to hurt would be way too risky. Even when Carley shoots it with her handgun, she needs to go up to it and put the gun right at its head to avoid accidentally hitting Lee.

    And yeah, Lilly was a good watch for being alert to what's coming out of the trees because that's what the watch is supposed to do: look out for external threats. No one was expecting a walker to just randomly pop up in the middle of the camp and try to take a bite out of Lee. I don't blame Lilly for not being able to handle something like that.

  • The thing with her, she does one bad thing and when given kindness by taking her with you instead of leaving her out in the dark, she does another bad thing and punishing the likes of Clementine, Lee(Depending), Katjaa & Duck by taking the only reliable vehicle when she's the one that messed up and in the wrong. She even lies about wanting you to come with her. Kenny & Katjaa were keeping it private and told Lee in strict confidence who he then told Clementine and Ben was busy watching Lilly at the back of the RV, I think he only found out after getting off the RV, Lee fell a sleep and Clementine was too scared of Lilly.

  • The thing with her, she does one bad thing and when given kindness by taking her with you instead of leaving her out in the dark, she does another bad thing and punishing the likes of Clementine, Lee(Depending), Katjaa & Duck by taking the only reliable vehicle when she's the one that messed up and in the wrong. She even lies about wanting you to come with her. Kenny & Katjaa were keeping it private and told Lee in strict confidence who he then told Clementine and Ben was busy watching Lilly at the back of the RV, I think he only found out after getting off the RV, Lee fell a sleep and Clementine was too scared of Lilly.

  • edited December 2013

    The thing with her is that she does one bad thing and when given kindness by taking her with you instead of leaving her out in the dark, she does another bad thing and punishing the likes of Clementine, Lee(Depending), Katjaa & Duck by taking the only reliable vehicle when she's the one that messed up and in the wrong. She even lies about wanting you to come with her. Kenny & Katjaa were keeping it private and told Lee in strict confidence who he then told Clementine and Ben was busy watching Lilly at the back of the RV, I think he only found out after getting off the RV, Lee fell a sleep and Clementine was too scared of Lilly.

  • edited December 2013

    Mark was a reasonable guy, he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy going around stirring things up.

    Lilly had an opportunity to shoot that zombie that was attacking Lee. She could've yelled out to Lee to try to distance his head away so he doesn't get caught in the crossfire or throw the rifle at either Mark or Larry to shut it.

    Here was the perfect chance to put it down.
    Alt text

    You said being alert to threats makes a good watch, I agree but here, she was nowhere, even after the attack, her rifle seems to be missing when she regrouped with everyone else. No one expected a zombie to pop out in the middle of camp but you have to be on alert, couldn't she hear the noises, It felt like she was daydreaming through out the whole zombie attack.

  • edited December 2013

    I'd call this more of a game design thing. Not everyone could be visible. Kenny and Ben weren't either yet they were right there. They could've killed it too

  • Mark was a reasonable guy, he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy going around stirring things up.

    Remember that time he told Larry what you had said about him in confidence? Or when he randomly blurted out the fact that they had a vet to random strangers they didn't know they could trust yet? Mark's a nice enough guy, but he seems to say what's on his mind most of the time without much regard for the implications.

    but here, she was nowhere, even after the attack, her rifle seems to be missing when she regrouped with everyone else.

    She is shown to be carrying her rifle when she ran up to Larry to calm him down right after the attack, She just puts it down when Ben started talking. It's possible she was taking aim but couldn't get a shot off.

  • Kenny was probably tending to his wife and even if he did get there, there wasn't much he could've done and Ben is a coward, do you honestly think he would go to where a zombie is. Lilly had a weapon that could kill the zombie and she was much closer to it than Carley, Doug, Mark & Larry yet they responded to it.

  • Mark was trying to stick up for Lee besides, Lee never told Mark to keep that to himself. When Mark blurts things out, he's blurts out things that happened, he doesn't make stuff up.

    Lilly was on watch, she was closer to where the attack took place, you said being alert is a good sign of being on watch yet in that scene, she was no where, Carley/Doug & Larry/Mark responded to the threat and they were far away.

  • edited December 2013

    Here's what Mark said: "The way Lilly worries about his health, I wouldn't be surprised if she's been skimming rations for him." That's speculation. I wouldn't call it "making stuff up" since he's not stating it as any kind of factual claim. He's just giving his opinion on what he thinks Lilly might be doing based on how much she worries about her dad. My point was that it's a false dichotomy to say that Mark is either factually stating that Lilly was skimming rations for Larry or that he was being intentionally misleading and stirring things up. He's a guy who likes to talk off the cuff.

    Like I said, Lilly might have just been trying to get a shot off from where she was. Even if she was trying to respond to the threat, you wouldn't have seen her because it's not like she would have walked right up to the walker and taken the shot.

  • I see what you did there.. "MARK my words.." Hehe.

  • I understand why most people hope it's Kenny, He played a bigger role in the first TWD. But Lily is in my eyes a much more interesting character with potential.

  • Its Lilly, it must be Lilly. Yes I know I really like Lilly so I might be biased here but here me out. Clem's reaction seemed more shocked and a little nervous. Wouldn't she be a little more up-beat to see Kenny. from the way things were left in Season 1, Clem had a better relationship with Kenny by the end rather than Lilly. In fact now that I think of it, Lilly and Clem rarely interacted. But yeah, my guess is Lilly.

  • Y'all trying to push yo opinion broski. My Clem ain't no weakling. She's keeping her humanity and hopefully offering Lilly another chance. Lilly ain't any selfish coward y'all. She risked her life to take those bandits out before they could kill anyone. Who knows with Michelle

  • edited December 2013

    Actually it might be someone WE never saw. I mean, Lee says she's been surving by herself for days... which means, during those few days Clementine might have seen someone disappear or "die", someone we never knew even knew existed. Maybe Sandra's boyfriend (that babysitter) or something ? This might be crazy but maybe Sandra and someone else who knew Clementine got trapped at the supermarket or something of the sort, then that unknown person disappeared at that time or pulled a Kenny and drew walkers to allow them to escape to Clem's house. Just throwing out random ideas there.

    This is really intriguing, I really wonder who it is ... Anyway I hope that if it's not someone we know they'll explain how and why.

  • It wouldn't make sense for it to be somebody that the player doesn't know, but Clem does. Since we ARE Clem now, we'd probably feel a little disconnect with her if it was someone she knew but we'd never seen (I would, at least). When they were in the first stages of making Season 1, originally the player would play as Clem's older brother instead of Lee. That idea got axed for exactly the same reason: the character had prior history with Clem that the player had no idea about. Given the huge setup that scene has been given, if it WEREN'T someone from Season 1, I think a lot of people would be disappointed.

  • Have you guys considered that "You" does not necessarily refer to one individual ;)?

    It could be Lily AND Kenny!

  • I like how you think! That would be awesome! Imagine...Keny and Lilly...Friends.
    Yeah like that's gonna happen...

  • Yeah I'd feel a bit disappointed too because all the hype would've been for nothing but I think it is still a probability, as slight as it can be. I sure hope it's either Kenny or Lilly myself.

  • People have to ask where Kenny's story can go from here, his arc was complete in season 1, where he finally let go of his selfishness and displayed altruism. I'm struggling to see where Kenny's story can go or why would it be interesting. I'm not saying Kenny is not alive or in season 2, im struggling to see why we would introduce him at this point of the story. We could see him in Tavia's group for example.

    Lily's story is littered with possibilities, we left her at her lowest, her mind snapped and she murdered one of her own group, she didn't have an arc in season 1, or at least an incomplete one. There is a chance for Lily to grow as a person, whereas Kenny not so much at all.

    Imagine if Lily is with those bandits, these bandits have a zero tolerance policy on violence to each other, to kill a member of the group is to be killed. Clementine knows Lily killed a past member of the group, Lily will want to keep that secret in case she is expelled on killed by the group and hence the tension begins.

  • Chances are Telltale will pull a Mark on us and introduce a character that the cast knows, including Clementine, but not the audience. Next episode is number 2, just like how it was in Season 1.

  • It's Travis' father. He is special forces.

  • But we didn't hear anything from her, the others responded to the threat and as I said, she could've threw her gun to Larry or Mark.

  • Since when does humanity involve forgiving a cruel person for the pain they endured on you and your friends?
    Lilly's not a selfish coward? What part made you think she was brave & selfless?
    I wouldn't call hiding in the balcony, out of the bandits view risking her life, her life wasn't threatened to begin with.

  • Jesus Christ, man, we're still on this?

    We didn't "hear" anything from her? What, is aiming a rifle supposed to make a sound? I'm not saying that that's definitely what she was doing, I'm just saying that we can't just dismiss the whole thing as "Lilly didn't do anything" when we didn't see everything.

    What the hell would throwing her rifle to Larry or Mark help accomplish? You think Larry or Mark would have had a better shot than she would? I don't know about Larry but Mark missed a stationary bird on a tree after a good while of aiming. Besides, like I said before, that was no place for a long-ranged weapon. If it were, Carley wouldn't have had to walk right up to the walker to shoot it.

  • edited January 2014

    Since when does humanity involve forgiving a cruel person for the pain they endured on you and your friends?

    Since...Jesus? Forgiving those who seek penance for their past wrong-doings is pretty commonly associated with having a strong sense of humanity.

    That being said, forgiveness for such a betrayal takes time. No one is saying that Lilly should be instantly forgiven the moment she says "sorry." But Clem should give her a chance to show that she's changed for the better, not just execute her on sight.

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