"Leaving her alone on the road is same as murder."

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  • edited January 2014

    She stayed because at that point, the group were still following her orders, after murdering a valuable group member, she realized they're not gong to listen to her anymore. I get she went through a lot but she's not the only one. I wouldn't help people that killed my dad but I certainly wouldn't help a bitch that killed a caring friend or change my opinion about her if she has a chance to redeem herself or even give her that opportunity. She made her bed now she can lay on it, if she wanted kill someone, kill Kenny or Lee, they're the ones that hurt you and took your dad away, the fact that she killed Carley/Doug just shows how much of a horrible person she is. Clem doesn't need to kill her but don't give her satisfaction that you can make up for the innocent life you took away for no reason but instead, reveal to your new group and hers of what backstabbing murderous witch she is and give her a hard time, if Lilly reacts angrily then that means she feels she's done nothing wrong which is messed up. I'm sure her new group(Excluding Rebecca) will understand her hate towards Lilly.

  • There's plenty. Her dad was murdered in front of her, by one of their own, someone ELSE in the group was now untrustworthy because they were giving supplies to their enemies and Kenny just had to harass and provoke her daily when if he really wanted to, he could get up off his ass and leave in the RV. I'm a Kenny fan so don't assume this is dislike for the character. Then they all lose their home because of the traitor she suspects is Ben, the one place they'd found sanctuary in and dedicated themselves to. On top of her trauma and mental state after her dad I can't even imagine what she must've felt like.

    AC Spoilers

    You're right about Altair but even so, to Malik that could've been just details. He could've continued to despise Altair for it much like Abaas loathed him for reasons not even comparable. Malik showed restraint though and even wisdom by forgiving him when many others wouldn't. The situations are different but to most families of someone killed accidentally or not by a "friend" they wouldn't forgive either way.

    My point is Carley was clearly murder, to me Doug's wasn't, it was accidental murder and the difference in facial reactions the animators gave to Lilly shows it

  • I hated what she said about Rick in S2but that was one scene and she clearly regrets it. You find it hard to let things go it seems. This is funny: You say Rick clearly felt bad about what he did and GIVEN TIME you saw him express it. With Lilly, you decide that she doesn't deserve said scene to show she's at all remorseful. Most of what you're sayingseems harsh to me. Yes this group was horrified at the St Johns,and this group changes. Kenny becomes increasingly self serving, Lilly becomes paranoid and depressed, Doug becomes depressed. Lilly could've ran away on foot but people don't exactly think straight when they're scared likethat. Ultimately this seems completely biased to any form of redemption for a character who made a mistake while not mentally stable and who can vary reactionwise. I've seen fans forgive Merle for the 15 people he murdered, yet Lilly? Nope

  • All of this is your opinion. You don't know what she felt that can't be gathered from facial animations because this isn't a multiple POV story. Once again I'm not saying you should Lilly in any way. I'm saying being biased toward "I will shoot her in the face without mercy if she comes back before even seeing if she's changed and making my character a murderer" Doug was an accident, you seem to forget that

  • edited January 2014

    So that justifies killing someone that never did anything to you? You're a Kenny fan then why is that he never killed anyone that gave him attitude after his families death and even after finding out it was Ben? Lee had to put an axe in his brothers head after finding out his parents are dead then shortly after a guy tried to kill him. Point is, there are characters that have gone through worse than her but if they can refrain themselves from doing the things that she did then what's Lilly excuse other than being a piece of shit?

    Assassins Creed Spoiler

    Malik was there, he knew what happened and how it led to it. He and Altair fight for the same cause and Altair made no excuses like saying "he needed to die as it was his time". Would you Malik forgiving Robert De Sable, the man that killed his brother? Would families forgive a bully that killed their loved one because they stood up for themselves? Never in a million years.

    Why do you ignore of what lead to Doug's death, she tried to kill Ben. Whether she killed the wrong person or not, in both situations, her intention was to murder.

  • Until she says she regrets it, I won't buy it. You know what, I recommend you read the issue again because it seems you got your details mixed up. I know Rick felt bad about it because he showed it right before he cut off her arm, like I said, he was in tears before he amputated her, right there at that moment he showed it, no way was that an action of a ruthless man, Lilly on the other handy didn't and again, the two situations are way different, Rick had a good reason and felt sad, Lilly had no reason and felt nothing. I highly doubt that this group changed after one week, you ask for their opinions on what to do with Lilly and they'll say leave her, nothing about killing. She didn't look scared, how do you know she was, you say I assume but you're assuming she was. A mistake? She murdered an innocent kind hearted person for nothing then leaves people to die and she knew was she was doing, a mistake is when I ask for a Coke and I get a Pepsi. Merle Dixon's a piece of shit and a criminal before the Apocalypse, he never hid this personality and showed that he cares about no one but his brother, Lilly pretended to care about the group only to murder one of them and leave the rest to die.

  • edited January 2014

    So what you're saying is that facial expressions don't show the real emotion but that debunks your opinion that she was shocked when she shot Doug because she had the reaction of it. When Lee smiled when he first saw Clementine, does that mean he was happy? When Kenny was raging to beat up Ben when he found out he was the cause of his family's demise, was he angry? Of course they were, her facial expression tells you everything that she felt. I get that you don't want to make Clem a killer but come on, do you want to make her weak? I'm sure you want your Clem to put Lilly in her place, not take any shit from her and treat her like scum. I know Doug's death was an accident but you've seem to forget that she tried to murder Ben who at that point was innocent until proven guilty.

  • edited January 2014

    Different people are affected differently. Everyone has their breaking point when they just flip. Lee's brother was turned and Lee didn't witness it, Kenny's family weren't technically Ben's fault yet he still lunges at Ben. Who knows what he would've done to him if he didn't know the others would keep them separated, The Malik forgiving Robert idea doesn't make sense because Robert was already the enemy and Malik wasn't ever with the Templars. Most families wouldn't give a rat's ass if the Altair getting their son or brother killed was an accident. They'd hate him anyway. It's hard to separate it from murder when they know who is to blame. I don't even ignore that Lilly wanted to kill Ben, it was wrong but again with the paranoia and stress she wasn't herself. The best idea would've been to disarm her and keep her somewhere safe in the RV until she was calm again

  • edited January 2014

    Or until her actions show it. I'd rather show than tell. You keep saying she felt nothing yet you ignore the two different facial expressions and reactions the animators give her. This group changed lots, you could tell, Ep3 everyone is depressed, bandit raids made an impact on their personalities. It's obvious she's scared. Kenny or Lee saying "We'll figure out what to do with her" would be more than enough to convince most to escape asap. Your streamlining of mistakes doesn't help this. ANYTHING can be a mistake. Merle didn't even kill one person before the apocalypse, he admits it to Michonne. Lilly didn't "pretend" to care. People can break and do things they'd never do in other circumstances. You discount all her good actions because many only count if you showed kindness to her first. So? That doesn't make them unworthy actions. It's a choice based game. You weren't with her, that's alright. But it doesn't discredit the way she acts in other playthroughs

  • I said the only thing we can go on isher facial expressions. Aka two vastly different ones depending on Carley and Doug. I don't want my Clem to kill anyone but if she must then yes, like Winston, My point is the idea of just saying "Let's kill Lilly before she can even say a WORD that could show she's changed" That would be unjust and wrong. If she tries to kill someone for no reason again then yes, bullet to the face. I'd hear her out though, two years is more than enough time foranyone to be different. Her murdering anyone in Ep3 was wrong, Carley, Doug or Ben agree. I don't like who she became. I'm saying she could've changed after two years is all

  • Facial Expression is more than enough to show how she felt about the situation but the main thing is that she pulled out the gun with the intention of killing someone. What do you want to hear out of her? What excuse would she have to kill a kind a person or attempt to kill a frightened teenager, both of whom never did anything to you, oh her daddy died as if she's the only person to lose someone. I'm saying Clem should just treat her like dirt, doesn't have to kill her, hear her out but not be sympathetic & understanding or give her any chance at redemption, though it'd be out of character for Lilly to change into Mother Theresa after two years considering she was not nice to begin with.

  • edited January 2014

    And how did she show it? exactly. OK, you say "everyone" is depressed and the bandit raid affected them but then you single out Lilly as a special case, you're saying I'm wrong when I say she felt nothing due to facial reactions yet you're saying she was scared when she showed no sign of it? If they wanted to kill her, they would've done so right there if they were as you say were changed people, "We'll figure out what to do with her" could mean anything and only Lee said that and who would execute her?

    How is it that you say she made a mistake when she knows she didn't make a mistake? And by your logic, I can go out, shoot someone that looks at me funny, say that people kill people everyday so why am I being punished and then tell his family "he asked for it" after I escape justice because after all, I did make a MISTAKE, Negan and The Governor made tons of MISTAKES, Crawford made a lot of MISTAKES, Thomas Richards was making MISTAKES before the apocalypse began.

    Merle Dixon's a piece of shit to begin with, a drug using criminal and a convict, besides, just because he did it doesn't make it right for others to follow in his footsteps. I'll say this again, anybody that can leave people she supposedly cares about to die shows she never cared at all. You're basing her care on hair clips she didn't need.

    People can break and do things they'd never do in other circumstances. You discount all her good actions because many only count if you showed kindness to her first. So? That doesn't make them unworthy actions. It's a choice based game. You weren't with her, that's alright. But it doesn't discredit the way she acts in other playthroughs

    So let's excuse her backstabbing, her murder, her loud mouth rants, her not giving a shit about you being zombie food because her dad didn't like you all because she broke and gave a little girl hair clips she didn't need because I'm sure she was like this in all playthroughs which isn't affected by the choices you make.

  • I've seen little kids handle it better, you're telling me a grown woman like Lilly couldn't tell herself that shooting someone who hasn't done anything to you is a bad thing. Different people are affected differently? Are you going to apply the same thing with The Governor? because after all, he wasn't the same Governor as he was in the novel. Lee didn't witness his brothers reanimation but he still had to axe him more than once. So what you're saying that it's OK for Lilly to kill Ben because she was paranoid & stressed but it aint OK for Kenny to beat the shit out of him for causing his families demise? You're saying it was not Ben's fault but you are saying it was his fault the Motel was lost? even though the bandits were already aware of it.

    Assassins Creed Revelations spoiler

    You're right, most families would hate Altair but are they gonna apply the same hate they have for him on Abbas & Swami who both fight for the same cause as Malik yet betrayed and murdered him and didn't give a rats ass? No, they would kill them if the opportunity ever arised. It's hard to separate murder and indirect cause? No it's not, if Malik can separate the two, surely his family can. What is Malik's family gonna say to Abbas? "It's OK my son, if we can forgive Altair for accidentally getting my youngest son killed, we can forgive you for purposely murdering my eldest son".

    The best idea would've been to disarm her and keep her somewhere safe in the RV until she was calm again

    That happened in the game, how did that work out again? Oh that's right, she pulled a Grand Theft Auto on the RV and leaves you to die. Still think that's a best idea?

  • edited January 2014

    Yes different people are affected differently by different things. No I'm actually not condoning what Lilly did so again, don't act likethat. Although if you're actually saying kids wouldn't use guns, that's funny. I'm not saying Kenny shouldn't hate Ben for what he did, I'm saying he could've killed Ben in a fit of rage for all we know, same as Lilly, BOTH BAD. I'm capitalising so you don't miss the key points here.

    I didn't say every family would be unable to separate purposeful and accidental, once again you assume. I'm saying many people wouldn't give a rat's ass if it was purposeful or accidental, I've seen it. Again, I said disarm her before anyone was shot and keep guard over her. Read thoroughly

  • edited January 2014

    Special case? I didn't say it. Watch both playththroughs and tell me her facial reaction right after shooting Carley and Doug are the same. You think the animators were just like
    Animator 1: "Alright, let's give Lilly two very different facial reactions, one for each shooting""
    Animator 2: "That's a good idea. This would show she reacts and feels differently determinant right?"
    Animator 1: "Nah. I just feel like throwing in two different animation sets."

    Also yes, if they said they'd "Figure out what to do with me" I'd be nervous. If you're saying you wouldn't be, you're kidding yourself. AGAIN, I'm actually not saying every murder is justifiable. I'm not saying "Oh Lilly let's be besties 4evar and forget your crime" I'm saying in the world they live in, she made a terrible mistake. I want her to be haunted because of it and hopefully changed, determinant. You're also assuming she didn't leave in a spur of the moment thing and regret it.
    Hair clips? Gosh, Clem didn't need those hairclips. Exactly. Lilly gave them to her out of kindness, not because it was required.
    Loud mouthed rants can be directed at any character besides Clem and a few other characters. They all shouted and screamed, it's the apocalypse. She does give a shit if you're not an ass to her, she even sides with Lee in Ep3 a fair bit at the Motor Inn. Side not, yes she was scared, you can hear it in her voice when she's being left behind on the road. Her voice being incredibly angry beforehand also doesn't mean she was never nervous, people shout when they're nervous

  • edited January 2014

    I didn't say I want to her her out for shooting them two years ago. I said I'd like to hear her out for who she is now. Here's something, Mother Theresa? I neversaid she'd be a heroic wonderwoman character with no flaws. I said she could've changed, that's all. Out of character for you but you never tried to get along with her it seems so that's alright. Another point, the other character's families and friends were killed by walkers or missing. Lilly's dad was murdered by Kenny and determinant Lee right in front of her, two people she trusted and is forced to see every day if she wants to stay in the Motor Inn, forced to ration things for. It's quite sad you'd be against any redemption for her. If she were to come back with a group of good friends, or even more, you'd be ready to shoot her? Or if she were to save Clem or another group member, or you can see she's haunted by what she'sdone two years ago, you'dtreat her likecrap anyway right?

  • edited January 2014

    So you wouldn't tell her new friends or your new friends about the sinister act she pulled two years previously? You aren't saying she's a cold hearted bitch either, just a lost caring woman. Believe it or not, I did get along with Lilly but the moment she shot Carley, I paused the game and started Episode 3 all over again to see if I can save her, after countless choices, I came to learn she dies no matter what and out of curiosity I wanted to see what would happen if I take her with me in the RV, after 4 times of her robbing the RV and leaving me for dead is when I started the whole thing all over again from Episode 1 where I was Pro Kenny and was a jerk to Lilly all the way because I came to learn that just like her dad, she's an evil selfish bitch. I've been on both sides and explored all options, they all came down to the same result, when I was getting along with her, I was tempted to click on some options where you give her attitude but I just wanted her to keep her dad off my back(In which she wasn't doing), overall she frustrated me with her bitchy attitude even when I was being nice to her. OK, her dad was killed by Kenny/Lee but why even attack or hurt Carley? This is what most of us Lilly haters don't get, if she attempted to kill Kenny, we would understand but she purposely killed the kindest member in the group just because she had a grudge for some unknown reason, It's shocking how you think she deserves to redeem herself after that horrific incident.

    If she were to come back with a group of good friends, or even more, you'd be ready to shoot her?

    Yes I would. Forget that you are Clementine for a second, don't tell me you wouldn't if someone like that killed a friend of yours?

    Or if she were to save Clem or another group member,

    Unlikely but if she does, for that I'll spare her life but I'd continue to treat her like garbage that she is.

    or you can see she's haunted by what she'sdone two years ago, you'dtreat her likecrap anyway right?

    Oh the poor thing is haunted and is having nightmares unlike her victim who is rotting on the road and is dinner for maggots that are currently chewing on her lifeless corpse who was murdered in cold blood by her for peanuts and will never experience life. You act like her being haunted makes it OK to go easy on her., that's like Rick Grimes & Maggie Greene going easy on The Governor & Negan because they're haunted by what they've done. A friend of yours who saved you countless times was murdered by her for nothing, you couldn't save your friend but the least you can do is make the murderer pay by either killing her or if you want to be humane, make sure she never forgets and be an ass to her always, going easy on her and giving her a chance at redemption for someone like Lilly is a shitty way of repaying your friend for all they've done to help you.

  • edited January 2014

    You were saying everyone was feeling the same, they were all depressed yet somehow Lilly thought it was a good idea to commit a monstrous act? That's why I said Special Case. I agreed that she did look shocked in Doug's version but she still had THE INTENTION TO KILL.

    Let's see, a history teacher and the pringles guy want to execute me, pringles guy could hardly kill a unconscious man never mind a conscious person and the history teacher that didn't retaliate when a cold hearted prick tried to murder him and you'd think these guys would execute you when they haven't done so already? Not once did she even ask "What are you gonna do with me?" so there goes her being nervous. And you're still saying it's a mistake? She pulled out a gun, pointed at someone then killed them and was not sorry, where's the mistake in that? She murdered an innocent person just like The Governor, The Saviors, The Hunters, The St Johns, The Stranger, The Marauders and The Bandits murdered innocent people, do you think they're haunted or lose any sleep for what they've done? because like Lilly, they don't show any sign of remorse.

    She left when the chance came. Lilly can leave Clementine to die but she cares about her through the affection of hair clips? That "act of kindness" means nothing when you have the heart to pull a stunt like that, remember that lie she told Lee about getting Clem and coming with her, well that was BS, turns out it was only a trick, so much for caring. The only person that yelled back at Lilly is Kenny, the rest of the group were calm with her and all she does is yell. Whether you're an ass to her or not, she didn't give a shit about you, still expects you to do things for her dad even after she knew what he tried to you. Yeah I can tell the scared notion and nervousness in her voice when she's stealing the RV. Of course she would be scared when you leave her behind, she's a coward that think she's a badass, shouting, threatening and waving a gun around and shooting people when their backs are turned then let's see how she does alone.

  • edited January 2014

    And it's what they do afterwards that defines them, you bring up her dads death as an excuse, how far can grief go before you cross the line? She witnessed her dad get murdered in her eyes so what does she do, do the same thing Kenny did to her dad but without a reason. I know you're not condoning what she did but you are making her out to be this caring person that made a "simple mistake" in purposely murdering an innocent person out of a petty reason even if she leaves you to die, she still cares right? When did I say anything about kids not having guns? Carl Grimes, Lizzie Samuels & Clementine to name a few lost a mother or a father or both but what did they do after? They saved lives, they didn't kill someone just for the heck of it. Could've or would've, Kenny didn't harm Ben in anyway and there were weapons in that room, Kenny could've shot Ben the same way Lilly did to Carley but didn't, if he did then this would be a different discussion but the final result is that he didn't.

    I didn't say every family would be unable to separate purposeful and accidental, once again you assume. I'm saying many people wouldn't give a rat's ass if it was purposeful or accidental, I've seen it.

    You know this doesn't help Lilly's case at all right? We know she purposely killed, families wouldn't give a rats ass whether it was on purpose or not then why should we give Lilly the benefit of the doubt as to hearing her out when she had a chance to explain herself or a chance to make things right when it was given to her when she was allowed back on the RV?

    Again, I said disarm her before anyone was shot and keep guard over her. Read thoroughly

    I read thoroughly, if that idea didn't work in the game itself, what makes you think it'll work in your version? You mean like Guards keeping an eye on the Scumbag convicts? Babysit a woman that cares about you in the hopes she doesn't stab you in the back. Thankfully she was disarmed otherwise she would've shot Lee before taking the RV.

  • I really liked Lily, I mean, not at first, but later she wasn't all to bad when you considered what she had to go through and the decisions she had to make. That is until she shot Carley, then, all bets were off. Still, I hope she's changed for the better, and remembers how cool Lee was to her until they split.

  • That would be hilarious if Lily caught up to the RV. She'd be thinking "Where the fuck did they go?" and she would see the train crash area and think "they left on a train! so badass!" Who knows, she might have followed the tracks to Savannah.... Let that sink in...

  • Lilly is gonna come back demanding the sixty cents Lee took out of Larry's pocket.

  • I felt sorry for Lilly. I even let her back on the RV, I knew she had to be punished and I was probably going to kick her out of the group unless she had REAL evidence it was Carley (at this point I'd narrowed it down so it HAD to be Ben, I had no doubt even before Kenny stopped the RV, but I wasn't gonna let him be kicked out by the road in the middle of the night, and I let Lilly back on because I knew all the noise would draw walkers. No matter what she did, I wasn't leaving a woman by the side of the road to die.
    I would probably have sent her off down the road, I wanted to kill her but I didn't want Clem to have anymore shit that day. Yeah that turned out well.
    When she took off with the RV though, leaving us stranded (I hadn't figured the train out yet) I figured fuck her though, I mean fine, she hated Kenny, didn't trust Lee, but she left two kids out there with no food or shelter.
    I understand why, she must have figured we were going to kill her, but she could've got Clementine killed and that dog don't hunt with Lee, his whole, indeed only remaining purpose at that point was to keep Clem alive, and Lilly took a giant shit on it.
    I'd like to see her back story wise like I've said on another thread, but my Clem wouldn't feel safe around her if the shit hit the fan unless she's gone through a change as dramatic as Brian Blake (the other way round though, can you imagine Lilly after 2 years at Governor level of crazy? lol)

  • Kenny never did anything evil. His only morally questionable actions are leaving the walker bait girl (which was Lee, not Kenny, at the end of the day) which was actually pragmatism, she was bit, we had kids to feed.
    Lilly does meet some of the characteristics of a sociopath, but not all. Many low level sociopaths actually do have empathy, but only for a very few close people, normally family, but have no empathy for other outside their circle, and have no ability to feel remorse at their own actions, which, to the sociopath, are always correct.
    She certainly not a complete sociopath, Nate's a better example of that. Thomas and the Governor are both really good examples of a psychopath, sadistic, remorseless, amoral. Notice even the Governor has twisted empathy though, for Penny at least.

  • Not really, lilys quite smart and not afraid too make tough decisions - i reckon she probably made it, but we won't see her again in the game.

  • Ye "brave", that's exactly how i'd describe what that bitch did - i hope bandits find her in the woods and put her out of her misery.

  • For my money Lilly would make the most sense followed by Christa or Molly. I guess we didn't see Kenny die but it was a pretty unescapable situation and completed the arc for that character. Lilly, Christa and Molly feel like they have more story to explore and could more realistically have survived where we last saw them.

  • edited February 2014

    Personally, I hope it's Kenny who comes back in season 2.
    Kenny was a good and loyal man!
    He tried to help peple, even when it was difficult.

    Case in point, after Kenny, Lee and Mark found Ben and his friend and teacher in the woods, Kenny helped bring Ben's and his gut-shot friend back to the motor inn.
    And as far as his being loyal, since My Lee and Kenny were best friends, when Clementine went missing, Kenny immediately volunteered to help Lee find her, refusing to let Lee go alone, and further stating Lee and Clementine were the only family he had left.

    With all that said, I sincerely hope that Kenny will survive to season 2.

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